HomeMy WebLinkAbout7-10-24 PB Agenda Packet 1
ORANGE COUNTY PLANNING DEPARTMENT
131 W. MARGARET LANE, SUITE 201
HILLSBOROUGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27278
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AGENDA
ORANGE COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
WHITTED MEETING FACILITY
300 WEST TRYON STREET, SECOND FLOOR
I-IILLSBOROUGH, NORTH CAROLINA 27278
Wednesday, July 10, 2024
Regular Meeting — 7:00 pm
No. Page(s) Agenda Item
1. CALL TO ORDER
2 INFORMATIONAL ITEMS
4 -5 a. Planning Calendar for July and August
3 APPROVAL OF MINUTES
6 - 45 June 5, 2024 Regular Meeting Minutes
4. CONSIDERATION OF ADDITIONS TO AGENDA
5. PUBLIC CHARGE
Introduction to the Public Charge
The Board of County Commissioners, under the authority of North Carolina General Statute,
appoints the Orange County Planning Board (OCPB)to uphold the written land development
laws of the County. The general purpose of OCPB is to guide and accomplish coordinated and
harmonious development. OCPB shall do so in a manner which considers the present and
future needs of its residents and businesses through efficient and responsive process that
contributes to and promotes the health, safety, and welfare of the overall County. The OCPB
will make every effort to uphold a vision of responsive governance and quality public services
during our deliberations, decisions, and recommendations.
Public Charge
The Planning Board pledges its respect to all present. The Board asks those attending this
meeting to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner toward each other, County
staff, and Board members. At any time should a member of the Board or the public fail to
observe this charge, the Chair will take steps to restore order and decorum. Should it
become impossible to restore order and continue the meeting, the Chair will recess the
meeting until such time that a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed.
The Planning Board asks that all electronic devices such as cell phones, pagers, and
computers should please be turned off or set to silent/vibrate.
Please be kind to everyone.
6. CHAIR COMMENTS
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No. Page(s) Agenda Item
Items 7, 8, and 9 are interrelated for the "Fiddlehead Corner" development proposal.
They were presented/discussed at the June 5, 2024 meeting and continued to the July
10 meeting. Materials for the June 5 meeting are available at:
https://www.orangecountVnc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Agenda/ 06052024-2035
Only persons signed up to address the Board at the June 5 meeting will be allocated
time to comment. Each person will have 3 minutes per item below to address the Board
and comments should be limited to the specific topic of the item (for example, the
Comprehensive Plan action, the UDO text amendment action, and the Zoning Atlas
action). Persons may not yield their allotted time to another person to speak on their
behalf.
Persons wishing to submit written comments to the Planning Board should follow the
instructions below.
7. See link COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FUTURE LAND USE MAP (FLUM) AND TEXT
above AMENDMENTS — To continue review and make a recommendation to the
BOCC on applicant-initiated amendments to the 2030 Comprehensive
Plan to amend the FLUM to expand a Rural Neighborhood Activity Node
(RNAN); and to amend the text of Appendix F: Land Use and Zoning
Matrix. The BOCC public hearing date is "to be determined."
Presenter: Tom Altieri, Senior Planner
8. See link UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT ORDINANCE (UDO) TEXT AMENDMENT — ADD
above FAMILY CARE HOMES AS PERMITTED USE TO MPD-CD ZONING DISTRICT
AND ASSOCIATED AMENDMENTS - To continue review and make a
recommendation to the BOCC on applicant-initiated amendments to the
UDO pertaining to Family Care Homes. The BOCC public hearing date
is "to be determined."
Presenter: Perdita Holtz, Deputy Director — Long-Range
Planning & Administration
9. See link ZONING ATLAS AMENDMENT (CONDITIONAL DISTRICT) - To continue review
above and make a recommendation to the BOCC on an applicant-initiated
zoning atlas amendment to rezone 90.133 acres (PIN: 9739-72-0339)
located off Morrow Mill Road at Gold Mine Loop, within the Bingham
Township. The proposed rezoning is from AR (Agricultural Residential)
to MPD-CD (Master Plan Development — Conditional District). The
BOCC public hearing date is "to be determined."
Presenter: Pat Mallett, Deputy Director— Development Services
10. ADJOURNMENT
Sign up to receive a notification when Planning Board agendas are posted
Interested persons can sign up at https://www.orangecountync.gov/list.aspx to receive a
notification when agendas are posted. (Scroll down to the "Agenda Center" category and choose
Planning Board).
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Monthly Planning & Inspections Newsletter
Sign up at https://www.orangecountync.gov/list.aspx?ListlD=408 to receive the monthly
communication on happenings in the Planning & Inspections Department.
Written Comments
Interested persons who cannot attend the meeting in-person are invited to submit written
comments on agenda items to the Planning Board via email at
planningboard(aborangecountync.gov no later than 3:00 p.m. on the afternoon of the meeting.
Please include in the Subject line of the email the title of the agenda item your comment pertains
to. Emails sent to this address are viewable on Google Groups:
https://qroups.google.com/g/ocplanningboard
Written comments can also be dropped off at the Planning Department's offices at 131 W.
Margaret Lane, 2nd floor, Hillsborough, NC during normal business hours (8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Monday through Friday). Written comments will be scanned and sent by staff to the email address
indicated above.
Review Process
The Planning Board is an appointed volunteer advisory board which makes recommendations to
the Board of County Commissioners (the elected officials). The Board of County Commissioners
holds a formal public hearing and makes decisions. Section 2.8 of the County's Unified
Development Ordinance contains a flowchart depicting the review process for rezoning and text
amendment applications.
Planning Board Member Potential Conflict of Interest
It is the duty of every Board member to avoid both conflicts of interest and appearances of conflict.
Board members having any conflicts of interest or appearances of conflict with respect to matters
before the Board should identify the conflict or appearance of conflict and refrain from undue
participation in the matter involved.
As a reminder, NC General Statute § 160D-109 establishes the following standard: Members of
appointed boards shall not vote on any advisory or legislative decision regarding a development
regulation where the outcome of the matter being considered is reasonably likely to have a direct,
substantial, and readily identifiable financial impact on the member. An appointed board member
shall not vote on any zoning amendment if the landowner of the property subject to a rezoning
petition or the applicant for a text amendment is a person with whom the member has a close
familial, business, or other associational relationship.
If any Planning Board member has any concern about a possible conflict related to an agenda
item, please notify Planning staff and get in touch directly with a member of the County Attorney's
staff before the meeting time to determine whether a conflict exists — and if so, how best to handle
the potential conflict.
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1
Sunday Monday Tuesday WednesdaiT Thursday Friday Saturday
1 2 3 4 5 6
HOLIDAY
7 8 9 10 11 12 13
Planning Board
Meeting
7:00 pm*
Whitted Bldg.
14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21 22 23 24 25 26 27
Board of
Adjustment
7:00 pm
Whitted Bldg.
28 29 30 31
Notes:
* Planning Board member attendance required
Planning Board meetings are held at Whitted Human Services Building - Donna S. Baker Meeting
Room 2nd floor 300 West Tryon Street Hillsborough, NC 27278
5
Sunday Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Frida Saturday
1 2 3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Planning Board
Meeting
7:00 pm*
Whitted Bldg.
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
Board of
Adjustment
7:00 pm
Whitted Bldg.
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30 31
Notes:
* Planning Board member attendance required
Planning Board meetings are held at Whitted Human Services Building - Donna S. Baker Meeting
Room 2nd floor 300 West Tryon Street Hillsborough, NC 27278
6
1 MEETING MINUTES
2 ORANGE COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
3 JUNE 5,2024
4 REGULAR MEETING
5
6 MEMBERS PRESENT: Lamar Proctor(Vice-Chair), Cheeks Township Representative; Statler Gilfillen, Eno Township
7 Representative; Marilyn Carter,At-Large Representative; Steve Kaufmann, Bingham Township Representative;
8 Charity Kirk,At-Large Representative; Chris Johnston, Hillsborough Township Representative;Whitney Watson,At-
9 Large Representative; Liz Kalies, Chapel Hill Township Representative; Delores Bailey,At-Large Representative;
10 Beth Bronson,At-Large Representative.
11
12 MEMBERS ABSENT:Adam Beeman (Chair)
13
14 STAFF PRESENT: Cy Stober, Planning & Inspections Director;Tom Altieri, Senior Planner—Long Range Planning &
15 Administration;Ashley Moncado, Planner III; Lauren Coffey, Planner I;Jack Moran, Planning Technician.
16
17 OTHERS PRESENT: Edwin Cox, Scott Radway,John Felton, Kevin Davidson, Mareah Steketee, Peggy Craft, Clare
18 Steece Julich, Ralph Warren, Dan Eddleman, Sadie Rapp, Laura Streitfeld, Greg Rapp, Betty Lou Whitford, Kathy
19 McHugh,Ann Simpson,Aadra Bhatt,Anna Hatcher,Joshua Setzer, Carol Mellon,John Kizer, Suzanne Moore,
20 Steckley Lee, Mary Latham, Colin Austin,Alan Julich, Bryna Rapp,Wilson Lamb, Susan Houck, Mike Hatcher,
21 Miriam Cowan, Tom Chirk, Christopher McGee, Bland Simpson, Isa Cheren, Stephen Stiebel, Linda D. Smith,Aditi
22 Watson, Ron Rouster,John Vogel, David D'Agostino, Jean Eddleman.
23
24
25 AGENDA ITEM 1: CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL
26 The meeting began at 7:03 PM.
27
28 AGENDA ITEM 2: INFORMATION ITEMS
29
30 Lamar Proctor: My name is Lamar Proctor, I am the Vice-Chair of the Orange County Planning Board. I want to
31 thank everyone for being here. Do we have a quorum? Mr. Stober has indicated we do have a quorum, so we can
32 go ahead and proceed. As for informational items, let me pull that up, and I'm just going to ask for everyone's
33 patience tonight. There are three agenda items on our agenda related to the Fiddlehead Corner Development
34 applicant and the application for rezoning. We are going to discuss openly and transparently as a board as to how to
35 proceed in order to make the most efficient use of our time. I will tell you about our local rules, our meetings end at
36 10:00 p.m., so I anticipate that this meeting and these agenda items will probably extend over multiple sessions, so
37 we meet on the first Wednesday of the month and so my agenda items are still loading but I can tell everyone that
38 our next meeting, and correct me if I'm wrong, is July 3rd.
39
40 Chris Johnston: July 10.
41
42 Lamar Proctor: July 10th, excuse me. Mr. Proctor reviewed the Calendars included in the agenda packet.
43
44 AGENDA ITEM 3: APPROVAL OF MINUTES
45
46 Lamar Proctor: Do I have a motion to approve the minutes from our May 1st of 2024 regular meeting?
47
48 MOTION BY Marilyn Carter to approve the Meeting Minutes.Seconded by Statler Gilfillen.
49
50 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY.
51
7
52 AGENDA ITEM 4: CONSIDERATION OF ADDITIONS TO AGENDA
53 None.
54
55 AGENDA ITEM 5: PUBLIC CHARGE
56
57 INTRODUCTION TO THE PUBLIC CHARGE
58 The Board of County Commissioners, under the authority of North Carolina General Statute,
59 appoints the Orange County Planning Board (OCPB) to uphold the written land development
60 law of the County. The general purpose of OCPB is to guide and accomplish coordinated and
61 harmonious development. OCPB shall do so in a manner, which considers the present and
62 future needs of its citizens and businesses through efficient and responsive process that
63 contributes to and promotes the health, safety, and welfare of the overall County. The OCPB
64 will make every effort to uphold a vision of responsive governance and quality public services
65 during our deliberations, decisions, and recommendations.
66
67
68 PUBLIC CHARGE
69 The Planning Board pledges to the citizens of Orange County its respect. The Board asks its
70 citizens to conduct themselves in a respectful, courteous manner, both with the Board and with
71 fellow citizens. At any time, should any member of the Board or any citizen fail to observe this
72 public charge,the Chair will ask the offending member to leave the meeting until that individual
73 regains personal control. Should decorum fail to be restored, the Chair will recess the meeting
74 until such time that a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed.
75
76
77 Lamar Proctor read the public charge.
78
79 PROCEDURAL ISSUES.
80 Because the three agenda items are interrelated the Board discussed procedural issues.
81
82 Lamar Proctor: Generally speaking when we have an agenda that includes multiple items,we address them each
83 separately; however, in this unique circumstance, I would entertain a motion to consolidate Items 7, 8, and 9 on the
84 agenda for the staff and the applicant presentations, as well as public comment,so I would welcome a motion or
85 entertain a motion at this time as to that or any discussion prior to.
86
87 MOTION BY Charity Kirk to combine the agenda items. Seconded by Statler Gilfillen
88
89 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
90
91 Lamar Proctor: By our stated policies,we give the public 3 minutes per agenda item, given that we have
92 consolidated those, I would like some discussion from the board given the large number of people who want to
93 speak,any idea or discussion as to public comment and time limits thereon. I looked at the sign-in sheets which are
94 still being filled out, there are multiple people for each agenda item, some in excess of 10 or 11, so roughly we got at
95 least by our rules about 2 hours of public comment,at least,so we can either have speakers present and do 3
96 minutes on the agenda item and they can just state the agenda item on which they would want to present. That
97 would be my idea on how to proceed, but, I would welcome any discussion about that.
98
99 Marilyn Carter: Mr. Chair, point of information. Will the public comment precede the presentations by the applicant
100 or follow. I see by meeting process it follows, is that right?
101
8
102 Lamar Proctor: The meeting process is there's a staff presentation on our items,the applicant presents, then there
103 are questions that will be entertained in sequential order from the Planning Board, and then we take public
104 comments,and then our deliberation and recommendations to the Board of County Commissioners following that
105 process. Since we have consolidated the items,we will, in essence, be discussing all three agenda items at once, so
106 we have to be very careful because, and I want to be clear, Mr. Stober,there's Agenda Item 7 is to review and make
107 recommendations to the BOCC on applicant-initiated amendments to the comprehensive plan to amend the FLUM,
108 the Future Land Use Map to expand a rural neighborhood activity node and to amend the text of Appendix F Land
109 Use and Zoning Matrix. That's the first item. Is that correct?
110
111 Cy Stober: That is correct.
112
113 Lamar Proctor: And so that would be to consider expanding, making conditional zoning that is under consideration
114 in this case applicable to the rural activity node.
115
116 Cy Stober: So the staff presentation will detail our analysis,yes, at present the zoning application is
117 inconsistent with the Future Land Use Map as well as Appendix F, and we have a fairly thorough presentation on our
118 analysis on the existing inconsistency and the applicant's proposed remedy to it.
119
120 Lamar Proctor: Okay, and the Agenda Item No. 8 is review and make recommendation to the BOCC on the
121 applicant-initiated amendments to the UDO pertaining to family care homes. And No. 9 is to review and make
122 recommendations to the BOCC on the zoning atlas amendment to rezone this particular parcel essentially from
123 Agricultural Residential to MPD-CD Master Plan Development Conditional District.
124
125 Cy Stober: That's correct. On Item 8 there's a staff recommendation on this submitted application to resolve
126 some statutory inconsistencies or some inconsistencies of our LIDO with general statute that are independent of the
127 applicant's proposed amendments.
128
129 Chris Johnston: Mr. Chairman, I would request that,you know,just looking at our meeting process,we have the
130 applicant presentation that's going to take place, `we're going to have the questions from the board and the public
131 comments, I would say if we can keep the questions from the board concise and not repeat each other and then for
132 the public comment request that the public listen to what everyone's saying and if someone is about to repeat what
133 'you've already said, in the interests of everyone here, if you have signed up to speak and that item has already been
134 covered, please state that you are reiterating what someone has already said,that will help us understand and gauge
135 where we are that will help move the process along and make sure that everyone can be heard. I would ask that we
136 not necessarily limit people to a lesser amount of time, but as long as we can all understand and work towards that, 1
137 think that'll move this process along.
138
139 Lamar Proctor: Okay,thank you. Any other comments?
140
141 Marilyn Carter: Mr. Chair, I would also recommend following the process that the Board of County Commissioners
142 uses for public comment', I believe it's 1 hours in a given meeting. They typically do it up front at the beginning of
143 their meetings, but we're allowed 1 hour to tonight and if we find that as we may that we're going to reach our 10 p.m.
144 time limit for the meeting that we follow into the next meeting with continued public comment and our deliberations.
145
146 Cy Stober: So, Ms. Carter and the board,that is for general public comments that are addressed to the board
147 on unspecified agenda items or topics. For agenda items, and particularly for those going to public hearing,which
148 this would, there's no limit on the number of comments or the duration of the comment period.
149
150 Marilyn Carter: Okay, in that case, in keeping with the policy then, I would agree.
151
9
152 Charity Kirk: I would suggest, it sounds like from my reading of Item 8 is that we are bringing things in line with
153 the state.
154
155 Cy Stober: In part,there are two amendments one will bring our UDO under compliance with the general
156 statute.
157
158 Charity Kirk: So my suggestion is we give each person 6 minutes, 3 minutes on each item because I think Item
159 8 is probably a little less contentious and that will try and keep it shorter, so 6 minutes total, 3 minutes per each item,
160 so if they only want to talk about one item, it's only 3 minutes that they get to talk.
161
162 Lamar Proctor: Well, I do think that the sign-in sheet accurately reflects which item and the name of the person
163 who wants to speak, so given that I think we're all accepting of the fact that this is going to be a multi-session
164 meeting, I think we should just be cognizant of the time and call those up in order in the order in which they signed up
165 and I would ask the public if you feel that your position has been stated, I don't want to cut anyone's time, but if you
166 feel that someone else has said what you wanted to say and it would be duplicative, then you're welcome to just let
167 us know you agree with someone else or I would just ask the public to be mindful of the time.we're not going to cut
168 anybody's time short because this is a public hearing and you all have the right to have your voices heard. So,what 1
169 would propose is that we just follow our normal meeting process and be cognizant of the time and give each
170 individual as they have signed up on the list their 3 minutes. Once the buzzer goes off,we're not trying to be rude,
171 we're just trying to be efficient about time, so when that buzzer goes off the 3 minutes is up, and you'll be asked to
172 step away from the podium to keep things moving forward. There is one additional request that has been made by
173 Preserve Rural Orange which is a community group who has asked for additional time. Before we get into that, does
174 everyone agree as to the process on individual comment on the sign-up sheet,does anyone have any further
175 thoughts.
176
177 Charity Kirk: Suggesting 3 minutes per topic?
178
179 Lamar Proctor: I think the individuals who have signed up have listed their name and the agenda item on which
180 they want to speak,so they should just be called up in order. If a particular individual wants to comment for 3
181 minutes on 7, 8 and 9,well,first we hear the comments on 7,then we'll hear the comments on 8, then we'll hear the
182 comments on 9. 1 don't see any other way to proceed that doesn't get confusing or lead to people feeling that their
183 time has been cut short and that they haven't had the opportunity to address each item as per our explicit rules.
184
185 Charity Kirk; So a 3-minute limit per person to talk about all agenda items.
186
187 Lamar Proctor: Per agenda item,that is our, unless you want to make another motion.
188
189 Charity Kirk: 3 minutes per person per agenda item, so 9 minutes maximum.
190
191 Lamar Proctor: If they signed up for 7,to comment on 7, 8 and 9, and we will do them in the order in which they
192 signed up.
193
194 Charity Kirk: That's fine.
195
196 Lamar Proctor: As per and in sequential order of the agenda items.
197
198 Chris Johnston: I think that makes sense because if we didn't have that we were going to smush them together.
199
200 Lamar Proctor: Right.
201
202 Cy Stober: So to be clear,there will be no deviation from the rules of procedure?
10
203
204 Lamar Proctor: No, I 'don't think, I think that would just create confusion and lead to the possibility that people 'feel
205 like their voice isn't being heard completely. So that being said as Chair, that is the way we'll proceed on public
206 comment. There is one additional request, like I said,from Preserve Rural Orange,who has asked for additional
207 time, so I welcome any comment about that. I will just say as Chair, I believe that since Rural Orange is essentially
208 addressing each agenda item and we have consolidated this,that they would be entitled to 9 minutes. They've
209 asked for 12 but I welcome any motions or any discussion about that. Given they are in kind of a unique situation in
210 that they represent a group rather than just an individual.
211
212 Marilyn Carter: I'll attempt a motion Mr. Chair,so the motion is consistent with the procedural rules for time that
213 each person coming to speak will speak for up to 3 minutes on the item that they have identified. If they have
214 identified more than one item,they will speak for an additional 3 minutes for each of those items up to 9 minutes
215 total, and so we'll hear from one individual who would like to address us for 9 minutes on all three items.
216
217 Lamar Proctor: And I think we can keep track of that. I think if we have the list and an individual has signed up for
218 7, 8 and 9, if that could be noted when they come up to speak and so I don't know if you guys want them to only talk
219 on 7 and then hear all the people who want to talk about 7, and then move to 8 or have one individual who is signed
220 up for 7, 8, 9,just talk about 7 and 8 and for 9 minutes straight.
221
222 Steven Kaufmann: Just that one individual?
223
224 Lamar Proctor: Well, anyone who has signed up, 'I haven't seen the sign-up sheet,so I 'don't know if individuals
225 signed up for all three, or two out of the three, or one out of the three.
226
227 Charity Kirk: What does the sign-up sheet look like? Are they one and a name where they say what they're
228 signing up for or is there a sign-up sheet for 7 and a sign-up sheet for 8 and a sign-up sheet for 9?
229
230 Cy Stober: They're separate sign-up sheets. We have 7, 8 and 9.
231
232 Charity Kirk: Okay, so why'don't we just do 3 minutes for 7 and 3 minutes for 8 and 3 for 9,follow the sign-up
233 sheet.
234
235 Lamar Proctor: Okay.
236
237 Statler Gilfillen: May I just ask this? The Preservation Organization represents a broader group of individuals,
238 more than one person. Can we just not,with that group give them the 12 minutes they've asked for, 3 minutes
239 difference and be done with it.
240
241 Lamar Proctor: So that's your motion, do I have a second?
242
243 Steve Kaufmann: I second.
244
245 Lamar Proctor: All right,all in favor of allowing that one individual to get 12 minutes, all in favor raise your hand.
246
247 Chris Johnston: And everyone else gets 3 minutes per agenda item.
248
249 Charity Kirk: So 9 minutes total.
250
251 Lamar Proctor: If they signed up for all three agenda items, 'but we're going to do it sequentially as they're listed,
252 so we're going to hear everyone who wants to comment about 7,then everyone who wants to comment about 8 and
11
253 everyone who wants to comment about 9. So'that's how the individuals on the sign-up sheet and then as to this
254 motion for 12 minutes for Preserve Rural Orange, I did have a second all in favor raise your hand. Okay.
255
256 Lauren Coffey: Could you please clarify any opposed?
257
258 Lamar Proctor: Yeah, any opposed?
259
260 MOTION BY Statler Gilfillen to allow 12 minutes for Preserve Rural Orange. Seconded by Steve Kaufmann
261
262 IN FAVOR: Statler Gilfillen, Marilyn Carter, Steve Kaufmann, Lamar Proctor, Charity Kirk,Whitney Watson, Liz
263 Kalies, Dolores Bailey, Beth Bronson
264 OPPOSED: Chris Johnston
265 MOTION PASSED 9 TO
266
267 Lamar Proctor: Okay, so the motion passes, so Preserve Rural Orange will get 12 minutes. As to their placement in
268 this process, I will entertain any discussion about their placement in the public comment section.
269
270 Chris Johnston: I make a motion that we place them before the public comments, right after the questions from the
271 board.
272
273 Lamar Proctor: Okay.
274
275 Statler Gilfillen: I'll second that.
276
277 Marilyn Carter: I missed that,what'd you say?
278
279 Chris Johnston: The motion is to put them before the public comments and directly after questions from the board.
280
281 Lamar Proctor: Now I heard a second, do you need discussion?
282
283 Charity Kirk: The other option is just at the start of agenda Item 9 since I believe that's probably what you're
284 talking about.
285
286 Lamar Proctor: We could put them at the beginning of public comment,we could put them after 7 is done,we
287 could put them after 8 is done,we could put them after 9 is done.
288
289 Chris Johnston: I have my motion and a second.
290
291 Dolores Bailey: Question. Is there a reason why you think they should go first.Why shouldn't they just go in order
292 to how they signed up,where they signed up?
293
294 Chris Johnston: To move the process along.
295
296 Lamar Proctor: Are they signed up on a particular agenda item or they signed up on all three.
297
298 Cy Stober: They were the first individual signed up on Agenda Item 9.
299
300 Chris Johnston: I amend my motion to be the presentation at the beginning of Item 9.
301
302 Lamar Proctor: And they'll be the first presenter on Agenda Item 9. All right,all in, do I have a second on that?
303
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304 Statler Gilfillen: I second it again.
305
306 Lamar Proctor: All right. All in favor? All opposed.
307
308 MOTION BY Chris Johnston to place Preserve Rural Orange's public comments first for Agenda Item 9. Seconded
309 by Statler Gilfillen
310
311 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
312
313 Lamar Proctor: I guess we are ready with that understanding to move forward in the agenda and the process to the
314 staff presentation.
315
316 AGENDA ITEM 6: CHAIR COMMENTS
317 None.
318
319
320 AGENDA ITEM 7: COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FUTURE LAND USE MAP(FLUM)AND TEXT AMENDMENTS—To review
321 and make a recommendation to the BOCC on applicant-initiated amendments to the 2030 Comprehensive Plan to
322 amend the FLUM to expand a Rural Neighborhood Activity Node (RNAN); and to amend the text of Appendix F: Land
323 Use and Zoning Matrix. The BOCC public hearing date is"to be determined."
324
325 AGENDA ITEM 8: UNIFIED DEVELOPMENT ORDINANCE(UDO)TEXT AMENDMENT—ADD FAMILY CARE HOMES AS
326 PERMITTED USE TO MPD-CD ZONING DISTRICT AND ASSOCIATED AMENDMENTS—To review and make a
327 recommendation to the BOCC on applicant-initiated amendments to the LIDO pertaining to Family Care Homes. The
328 BOCC public hearing date is"to be determined."
329
330 AGENDA ITEM 9: ZONING ATLAS AMENDMENT(CONDITIONAL DISTRICT)—To review and make a recommendation
331 to the BOCC on an applicant-initiated zoning atlas amendment to rezone 90.133 acres (PIN: 9739-72-0339) located
332 off Morrow Mill Road at Gold Mine Loop,within the Bingham Township.The proposed rezoning is from AR
333 (Agricultural Residential)to MPD-CD (Master Plan Development—Conditional District). The BOCC public hearing
334 date is"to be determined."
335
336 Cy Stober: So, Mr. Chair,we have a number of administrative procedural slides just to discuss what we're
337 doing here generically before we even get into the specifics of the item. I'll just note the Efland Ruritan Club was
338 presented at the last meeting on May 1 st,and were approved by the commissioners, by the way, last night and that
339 was a conventional zoning application, so they applied for general commercial 4, had 52 permitted uses in general
340 commercial districts,what we're here tonight is to consider conditional zoning. Conditional zoning is use-specific with
341 individualized development conditions and standards. These conditions must be agreeable both to the county and to
342 the applicant. All conditional zoning requires a site-specific development plan. In this case as the Master Plan
343 Development,the site-specific plan is a master plan which has some liberties but also additional responsibilities in its
344 drafting and how it is to be constructed. So, a conditional district, according to North Carolina General Statutes
345 160D-703, as I said, they are permitted,they are allowed through the legislative process rather than the quasi-judicial
346 process. Additional conditions may be negotiated, and you'll see this in the motions that are available to you when
347 you do make a motion on the zoning case that's presented to you this evening if it is agreeable to the applicant and
348 they agree to it in writing by the time we get to the end of the public hearing.Again,you're making a recommendation
349 to the Board of Commissioners tonight, this is not a public hearing, but it will lead to one, and oh, this is very
350 important, rezoning decisions are based on the determination of whether that request is consistent with the purpose
351 and intent of the principles, goals, and objectives of the adopted comprehensive plan. That is per statute. So the
352 process that led us to today,the application was received by the County, it was reviewed by our development
353 advisory committee several times,there was a neighborhood information meeting hosted by the applicant per our
354 ordinance requirements,we are at this point this evening where the planning board is considering the matter and will
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355 be making a recommendation to the commissioners. You also will be making recommendations to the
356 commissioners on a related text amendment application and two amendments to the comprehensive plan, one to the
357 Future Land Use Map and the other to Appendix F. So this is just to drive the point home,the enabling legislation is
358 160D-703, this is reflected in Section 2.9 of the Orange County UDO, and some guidance from the statute is that all
359 zoning regulations should be made in accordance with the comprehensive plan and the intent of that is to promote
360 the public health, safety and general welfare and something that should be considered when changing the zoning is
361 the character of the district, it's particular suitability for particular uses and with a view to conserving the value of
362 buildings and encouraging the most appropriate use of the land throughout our jurisdiction which is countywide.
363 Additionally, in 702 it identifies what may be regulated through conditional zoning,what cannot, and this is at the very
364 bottom and was clarified in the regulatory reform text amendments that were also heard by this board in May is that
365 we are not permitted to regulate the appearance, architecture or aesthetics of any buildings covered by the North
366 Carolina Residential Code, so that's single-family dwellings,duplexes, triplexes and quadplexes. And then this just
367 reiterates that we are empowered to regulate conventional zoning districts as well as conditional zoning districts by
368 statute, and that we are permitted to do so per statute in a negotiation with the applicant, and that these conditions
369 should be limited to those that address the conformance of the development and use of the site to local government
370 ordinances or the impacts reasonably expected to be generated by the development or use of the site. So,what is
371 the applicant's responsibility? They must establish the use type, this evening we're considered a master plan
372 development. They must provide a formal site plan or in this case a master plan according to our UDO and the
373 application is subject to conditions of approval both those that are included in the application which, in this case is the
374 master plan,as well as any other conditions the board or the board of commissioners wishes to negotiate with the
375 applicant. So just a remainder,the comprehensive plan according to 160D and our LIDO is the principal guiding
376 document for all land use decisions in Orange County and any jurisdiction, but ours relates to our county. The
377 Unified Development Ordinance is the laws that dictate how land is used and what development occurs in Orange
378 County. Of course,construction is dictated by the building code. Any changes and what is permitted on a piece of
379 land, the zoning, must be consistent or at least must be analyzed where it is consistent with the adopted
380 comprehensive plan. I will remind you that 160D also makes it clear that the County can make decisions that are
381 inconsistent with our comprehensive plan and thereby amend our comprehensive plan through a zoning decision.
382 They do not have to necessarily be consistent, but the actions of the elected officials can be inconsistent with our
383 adopted plan and thereby amend the adopted plan to reflect the actions of the board. The principal guidance for land
384 use decisions in our comprehensive plan is the Future Land Use Map that is proposed for amendment as well this
385 evening and we will have details on that in a moment. And just a reminder that this is where we are in the process,
386 this has been a lengthy process,the application was first received by the county last year and has been under review
387 for over a year. So,the objectives tonight,just to reiterate, is to hear from the staff and our analysis,the applicant
388 and to take public comments to discuss the analysis and the recommendations and to make a recommendation on
389 the zoning application, but also the text amendment and comprehensive plan amendments to the Board of
390 Commissioners for their consideration. And with that, I do thank you for the motion to consolidate the matters,we're
391 going to begin with the zoning atlas analysis and then you'll see we will lead right into the text amendment and then
392 into the comprehensive plan amendments, and the current inconsistencies that the applicant proposes to remedy and
393 what the impacts of those may be to the county. So where is the property in question? It is in Bingham Township
394 near the intersection of 54 and Morrow Mill Road, more specifically at Gold Mine Loop. It is an unaddressed
395 property, it was formerly the Cheeks Farm, but the property was subdivided about a year ago to create this parcel of
396 land that was purchased by Hands Four Development. Its current zoning is agricultural residential.The requested
397 zoning is master plan development conditional district and the proposed use is for 150 residences in a variety of
398 housing types, a community center,two family care facilities, and recreational amenities to serve the residents of that
399 community. Additionally,as you'll see in a future slide there is a principal stem road that will be partly DOT
400 maintained and access to both Morrow Mill Road and Gold Mine Loop. The surrounding zoning is a mixture of
401 principally agricultural residential and then on North Carolina 54 you have commercial zoning that is adjacent to the
402 property. This is the site-specific master plan, and you can see the different housing types here. You'll see in the
403 middle the kind of center of the community with the non-principal non-residential uses. Just to orient you, this is true
404 north, so this is how the layout that's in the plans, but if we are to get our bearings,this is north, and North Carolina
405 54 is just north of this orientation. To the west is Gold Mine Loop. If you're just trying to think about where you're at.
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406 Any other requirements are the requirements for site plan and master plan development submittal,there are no other
407 proposed conditions. The applicant conducted a traffic impact analysis, an environmental site assessment, they've
408 provided analysis on architectural for all non-residential uses and made commitments there, and they've also
409 analyzed the utilities and they have more detail on this, including the proposed wastewater treatment. Those have all
410 been reviewed by the staff on the development advisory committee which includes staff from environmental health;
411 emergency services; solid waste; and department of environment, agriculture, parks, and recreation. The
412 consistency analysis was conducted by staff and I'll note that it was not just current planning and zoning staff, but
413 also our comprehensive and long-range planning and administrative staff, and you'll hear more from Tom Altieri,the
414 senior planner in that division in a moment. And part of the analysis is that family care facilities are not a permitted
415 use in the master plan development conditional district which brings us to Item 8, the proposed text amendments.
416 There are two amendments proposed by the applicant, one is to add family care home as a permitted use in MPD-
417 CD district and the other is to rewrite a footnote in Section 3.8 which is the description of the MPD-CD zoning district
418 that corresponds to the proposed amendments to the comprehensive plan that would allow MPD-CD districts in rural
419 neighborhood activities nodes. There was one amendment proposed by staff that is in the abstract for Item 8 that is
420 to bring our definition for family care home into alignment with that of the state. So just a brief analysis and this really
421 is a reiteration of what's in the abstract, it's fairly straightforward. 160D,which is the land use and development
422 statute, determines what a family care facility is for everyone in the state and the definition is provided here. To be
423 clear, a family care home is deemed a residential use of property for zoning purposes and is a permissible use in all
424 residential districts and we shall not limit that use by making it a special use or requiring a variance to require
425 additional burdens for anyone who wishes to have a family care facility on a residential property. Our definition of
426 master plan development, it references unified large-scale subdivisions which are presumed to be residential in
427 nature, as well as mixed use developments, also presumed to be partially residential in nature. And reviewing that,
428 we've assessed that all 16 conventional zoning districts that permit residential uses and the two conditional districts
429 that support residential uses already allow family care facilities and therefore, it would be appropriate to bring this use
430 as an allowed use into the MPD-CD district. There is an accompanying amendment in the applicant's text
431 amendment application that addresses, again,that footnote in Article 3 for MPD-CD being permitted in the rural
432 neighborhood activity node,and this corresponds to the application for the comprehensive plan amendment to
433 amend Appendix F to allow the same thing. You are permitted to consider the two amendments separately. Are
434 there any questions on that before we move forward?
435
436 Whitney Watson: Yes, I have a question. One of the notes about the MPD-CD,was that there seemed to be an
437 oversight in the matrix,which is one of the suggestions. I was wondering if perhaps the rural community
438 neighborhood, or rural community activity node,was not the actual mistake where it had allowed the master plan
439 development conditional district as opposed to having been omitted from the other. Because it seems to me that in
440 both the community and the neighborhood activity nodes going into this master plan fundamentally changes the
441 character of those activity nodes, at least according to the definitions in both the UDO and the plan, so could you talk
442 a little bit about how those two nodes,activity nodes are different from each other and how they will be, how it might
443 be corrected by adding.
444
445 Cy Stober: Thank you for the segue,that's the very next thing we were going to get to Mr.Watson,thank you.
446
447 Lamar Proctor: All right, good, and I do want to take an aside.This is unrelated to your presentation, but the sign-
448 up sheets, the people who have signed up tonight,that will be the end of the sign-up. If we go into multiple sessions,
449 1 just want to make this clear,there won't be an additional opportunity for more people to sign up. Only those who
450 sign up this evening prior to the public comment period will be permitted to speak.
451
452 Cy Stober: Let me rush those back to the sign-in table so folks can sign in if they want.
453
454 Dolores Bailey: Mr. Chair, does that mean that if they haven't signed up tonight that they will be able to sign up?
455
15
456 Lamar Proctor: No,that means, they will not. If you don't sign up tonight, even if we go multiple sessions, if we go
457 to July,you can't sign up to speak at the public comments section in July. These agenda items are what were
458 started, and this sign-up sheet is the totality of those who have signed up for public comment. Regardless if we go
459 June,July and August.
460
461 Dolores Bailey: And are you going to give an opportunity for a member of the public who sits there and then
462 decides they want to sign up to sign up?
463
464 Lamar Proctor: No, once we start the public comment portion, and I think that's fair, unless anyone disagrees, to
465 leave the sheets out until we begin the public comment portion and then we'll take them up and then we'll begin
466 hearing public comment, the sign-up will be closed at that point.
467
468 Beth Bronson: Acknowledging that there is another public comment period during the BOCC's public hearing.
469
470 Lamar Proctor: Right,this is not the final answer on this project. We make our recommendation and it goes
471 forward to the Board of County Commissioners.
472
473 Marilyn Carter: Mr.Vice Chair, my point of view is that someone may hear something in comment and then have a
474 point of view about it.
475
476 Statler Gilfillen: Can we do it this way? If they are here this evening, can they sign up to the end of tonight to
477 speak,even though it may mean that the next time instead of censoring it or stopping it right before anybody speaks,
478 just be flexible.
479
480 Lamar Proctor: Well, I think for efficiency purposes, because we collect the sign-up sheets and begin the process, 1
481 think people during the presentation if they hear something that they want to comment on,they can sign up for that
482 item but once we begin, my plan as Chair would be to take up the sign-up sheets once we begin the public comment
483 portion.
484
485 Charity Kirk: You're welcome to pass on your sign-up on speaking too, if you don't have anything to talk about.
486 We don't mind.
487
488 Dolores Bailey: So after we're done talking about 7 we can't talk about it again, that's what you're saying.
489
490 Lamar Proctor: Yeah, I mean,that'll be it, once we collect the sign-up sheets at the beginning of the public
491 speaking portion,that's it, so I just want the public be aware that they need to sign up now if they want to be heard as
492 to these agenda items, because we will not have an opportunity to sign up again in July or in August if this goes into
493 multiple sessions. And that has been our general practice just so everyone knows that this has been our rule is that
494 those who sign up when we begin the agenda items are the ones who are permitted to speak, you can't come in
495 halfway through the process and then sign up.
496
497 Chris Johnston: Returning to the staff presentation, to confirm on Item 3, the proposal brings the Orange County
498 UDO in conformance with the intent of NCGS 160D,we're just aligning the state definitions, correct, so really, there's
499 not a whole lotta discussion there. We have to follow the state requirements for family care facilities, correct?
500
501 Cy Stober: So,the application brought this to light,that we were not in conformance with the statute, and to be
502 fair, the statute was adopted in 2021 so it's still fairly recent, and this was a new update.
503
504 Marilyn Carter: Just a point of information in our process, if the board is in agreement with an item earlier versus
505 later and perhaps once we get to the point of staffs presentation completing,would that be something we would vote
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506 on as first, in other words, at what point if there's general agreement of the board,that we should vote on accepting
507 this particular amendment,the one amendment.
508
509 Lamar Proctor: I think we need to go through the process as stated, hearing from staff, hearing from the applicant,
510 questions from the board, public comment, deliberation,and then we will take each item separately.
511
512 Marilyn Carter: Okay,very good,thank you.
513
514 Cy Stober: So,this was not a staff-initiated amendment, it was an applicant initiated amendment, so the
515 applicant needs to speak to the matter before any action should be taken.
516
517 Lamar Proctor: Yes, and I had a quick question and tell me if this is the next part of your presentation,the
518 difference between rural community and rural neighborhood activity nodes and why MPD-CD zoning was applicable
519 to RCAN, but not RNAN if there's some explicit reason.
520
521 Cy Stober: Tom and I will do our best to try to read the minds of folks in 2006 and make that determination.
522 But yeah,that's where we're heading.
523
524 Lamar Proctor: All right,thank you. Any other questions before we proceed,okay,thank you.
525
526 Cy Stober: So,the Future Land Use Map designations for this property are agricultural residential in green.
527 The definitions that are applied to the two Future Land Use Map designations can be found here on the slide. The
528 other is rural neighborhood activity node which covers the intersection of Morrow Mill and North Carolina 54. And
529 then the applicant has proposed to amend here in the hashing the activity node to extend to the limits of the property.
530 And with that, I will ask Tom to come up and address Item 7 which he conducted the analysis on. This is Tom Altieri,
531 Senior Planner.
532
533 Tom Altieri: Yes,thank you Cy, good evening. So, the purpose of this item is to consider two applicant-initiated
534 amendments to the comprehensive plan,the first being to the Future Land Use Map to expand the Rural
535 Neighborhood Activity Node and the second a text amendment to Appendix F of the Comprehensive Plan which is
536 the land use and zoning matrix. I have about 13 slides so a couple of them will look similar to what was provided in
537 the zoning atlas amendment deck so I'll go through those quickly. The proposed amendment is to expand the rural
538 neighborhood activity node by approximately 71.6 acres from the land use classification agricultural residential to
539 rural neighborhood activity node. And the text amendment again to Appendix F as I mentioned. This particular slide
540 includes a vicinity map of the Future Land Use Map and it shows how the adjacent properties or local properties are
541 classified on the Future Land Use Map. The classifications that you see here include agricultural residential,the
542 node that we have mentioned several times, rural residential, rural community activity node,and then the rural buffer,
543 and on the next slide it's a little bit better view of the area here. Just to kind of orient, the reverse C shape in the
544 middle of the map there, that is the property in question. Just to the north is the rural neighborhood activity node.
545 The rural community activity node at White Cross is further to the east there. It's a little less than 2 miles, about 1.8
546 miles,from the central portion of the neighborhood node to the central portion of that community node. The
547 boundary of the rural buffer is further to the east you can see it there on the map where University Lake watershed is
548 labeled there, but predominantly agricultural residential which is the lighter of the two green shades on the map. In
549 Mr. Stober's presentation he reviewed the definitions of the agricultural residential and rural neighborhood activity
550 node. I'll get to the community node in just a bit. But there's also an overlay in this area and that is the resource
551 protection area overlay that is land designated as primary conservation area which includes wetlands and flood
552 plains, steep slopes, natural areas,wildlife habitats and corridors, and significant historic and archaeological sites.
553 There is a very small portion on the property all the way in the lower right-hand corner where you see the dark green
554 area, that is the area of resource protection overlay. There is a letter in your packet, really all of this information is in
555 your packet, but I know you can't read the letter that's here on the screen, but it is from the county's Department of
556 Environment,Agriculture, Parks, and Recreation, and it speaks specifically to those resource protection areas that
17
557 are shown on the map. It does identify flood plain,wetlands, bottom land, hardwood forests and soils of importance
558 that are of conservation value, so that has been noted in that letter in that section. The letter, I believe is Attachment
559 5 as part of the zoning atlas agenda item,you can find it there. These flood plains,wetlands, hardwood forests,soils
560 of importance,that reflects what's included in the letter. Just a little bit of analysis of the neighborhood node. So, this
561 is the node at Morrow Mill and centered at NC 54. The node is a quarter mile radius and based on an assumption,
562 what we've tried to do here is try to make some determination of,well, how much of that existing node is developed
563 versus undeveloped, and in order to do that you have to make an assumption,and the assumption that's used here,
564 the areas that are shown in darker blue as developed,the assumption is if there's a structure on a lot that's 20 acres
565 or greater in size,we're saying that's developed, so again, it's up to individual property owners choices. There may
566 be some development potential that's left on those lots that are 20 acres or less in size that we're calling developed,
567 but, generally that's the assumption that we've made here. You change that assumption and the map here would
568 look a little bit different. So based on that assumption, approximately 37 percent of the acreage within the node is
569 developed. Just a little bit about land uses in the area,we do have some non-residential uses, the PSM Food Mart,
570 the Piedmont Feed and Garden Center, and the UNC Chapel Hill facility there as well. There are also 16 single
571 family homes located within the node. So,there's been reference to Appendix F in the comprehensive plan. The
572 amendment is to add MPD-CD, Master Plan Development Conditional District as a compatible use within the rural
573 neighborhood activity node. The matrix does provide that linkage,that connection for consistency between the future
574 land use classifications on the map with zoning districts that are part of the zoning atlas and this amendment would
575 establish that consistency between the comprehensive plan and the applicant's request for its rezoning and with this
576 matrix the only change is highlighted in that red box, adding a diamond there at the rural neighborhood activity node.
577 Noting that, in the rural neighborhood activity node, the only conditional district that is not currently consistent is
578 MPD-CD, so there are three other conditional districts that are permissible within that node. The applicant's request
579 for amendments is based on the premise that changes have occurred and are occurring in the county. The changes
580 are reflected in the letter of request from the applicant, that's Attachment 1 in your packet and just very generally, it's
581 more detailed in the letter, but that letter speaks largely to changing demographics in the county,the growing senior
582 age population,those age 65 and over, and the need for housing and neighborhoods to meet their needs. Staff has
583 put together this slide and the subsequent slide to provide some land use-related information about all of the rural
584 neighborhood activity nodes countywide. If that matrix were amended to include that MPD-CD,then it would also be
585 permissible in the other nodes that are throughout the county, so that brings me to this slide. There are ten
586 countywide, including the node at Morrow Mill and NC 54,totaling a little over 1,100 acres based on the same
587 assumption used previously about the 20-acre lot size being developed with a structure on it,48 percent of the
588 neighborhood nodes countywide could be considered developed noting that this does not represent the actual
589 impervious development footprint, it's just based solely on lot size. These nodes have been included as part of our
590 land use element on the Future Land Use Map since it was originally adopted in 1981. The same applies with our
591 rural community activity nodes, as well, those have been on the map since the original plan, as well, and were carried
592 over in the 2006 comprehensive plan that we're currently discussing today. Staff analysis as required under LIDO
593 Section 2.3, the planning director is to cause an analysis to be made in the application and prepare a
594 recommendation. The planning director has acknowledged that the application is complete,that Appendix F is
595 supportive of the principals, goals and objectives outlined in the comprehensive plan, the proposal does speak to
596 changing demographic conditions in the county and that the proposal establishes consistency between the
597 comprehensive plan and the requests for the rezoning. The MPD-CD zoning district was originally established to be
598 a mechanism through which innovative proposals could be considered. I will add here that I have not listed on this
599 slide the consistent goals and objectives and principles, those are all listed specifically in your abstract, I just didn't
600 want to take up this time and the space on this slide here, but those are in your packet within the abstract.And then,
601 finally, the text amendment application features a complementary amendment to Article 3 MPD-CD standards
602 regarding the future land use classifications that support MPD-CD. So that concludes the presentation. I will just
603 address the one question to the extent that I am able, those nodes were established in the original 1981 plan. There
604 is a little bit of information in the plan regarding the definitions of those areas and I didn't provide the definition for the
605 rural community activity node in the slide deck,this was the larger node that was located at the intersection of NC 54
606 and White Cross, and as defined, a rural community activity node is land focused on designation road intersections
607 which serve as a nodal crossroads for the surrounding rural community and is an appropriate location for any of the
18
608 following uses: church,fire station,small post office, school or other similar institutional uses and one or more
609 commercial uses. And then again,just to hear them back to back,the rural neighborhood activity node is defined as,
610 land focused on a designated road intersection within the rural areas that is appropriate for small scale commercial
611 uses,characteristic of mom and pop convenience stores and gas stations. I do know that part of the rationale for the
612 location of the community nodes was that they correspond with historic crossroad communities in the county and so
613 in addition to White Cross,there's Cedar Grove,there's Carr,there's Caldwell and Schley which are four rural
614 community nodes that are all in the northern part of the county. As far as why MPD-CD was left out of one node and
615 not the other, I just won't venture to guess, I would say I would do the same thing that the board and others might do
616 is try to read the definitions there and try to maybe guess at what may have been the original intentions. We did
617 have previously, before conditional districts, there was a planned development district and so there were some
618 changes when the code was updated to include conditional districts and that may have been,the time in between the
619 original establishment of those nodes and the creation of the original matrix from 1981,when a change was made to
620 the matrix. So, I will stop there. I hope that helped some.
621
622 Lamar Proctor: All right,any questions of Mr.Altieri?
623
624 Chris Johnston: I do have one quick question. The rural neighborhood activity district,they're all circles and so my
625 question would be in regards to how often they expand outside those designated circles that they have? They all
626 looked pretty standard still, and so was this the first one that has tried to venture outside of its designated zone since
627 1981?
628
629 Tom Altieri To my knowledge I believe this would be the first expansion of one of those nodes. There are a
630 couple going back, again to the original plan that aren't full circles,that were like little slices of circles, and there are a
631 couple of those in different areas of the county. Having read a while back the 1981 plan, these things were located
632 where there were existing uses on the ground at that point in time, so my guess is where there's a slice and not a full
633 radius they were trying to cover maybe one corner of an intersection and make sure that there was a consistent land
634 use classification.
635
636 Chris Johnston: Sure, and I guess my follow-up question then is in regards to why they picked a circle versus, 1
637 mean, I don't want to get into the logistics there, but why they picked a circle instead of following the existing parcels
638 or anything along those lines. It just feels like it belabors itself to having to be expanded one way or another if it were
639 to follow that.
640
641 Cy Stober: If I may, that is a consistent frustration of staff with our Future Land Use Map.The failure to follow
642 property lines presents some challenges.
643
644 Chris Johnston: So, it's not unreasonable to expand it because the circle just seems to have been pulled out of—
645
646 Tom Altieri: Correct. And so again, going back to 1981,well before geographic information systems we had
647 paper copies, I wasn't here then, but paper copies of the zoning maps with the parcel lines, literally blue lines.
648 There's been a lot of changes in technology and so yes,with our update to our plan we do see it being more parcel
649 based than what we have now.
650
651 Chris Johnston: Okay,thank you.
652
653 Marilyn Carter: Thank you for the presentation and the history. I do have a question about MPD-CDs and whether
654 any rezonings have taken place under that classification with the rural community activity node over time. Have we
655 had an MPD-CDs yet in the county?
656
657 Tom Altieri: There have not been.
658
19
659 Lamar Proctor: Can you briefly sum up the difference between RNAN and RCAN node, rural community rural
660 neighborhood?
661
662 Tom Altieri: Not any more than I did by reading those definitions of the two.
663
664 Beth Bronson: Chair, I apologize, I have a question. But if you would like to go first, please.
665
666 Cy Stober: The only thing that I would have to add is that when they were assigned,the rural
667 neighborhood activity node was to serve a population of 1,000 people or less and the rural community activity node
668 was to serve a population of 1,000 to 5,000 people. Tom covered everything else.
669
670 Lamar Proctor: Okay, Ms. Bronson.
671
672 Beth Bronson: Thank you, and just because you did clarify the definition of the RCAN and the RNAN,the
673 neighborhood activity node would be more for like the mom and pop convenience stores,this idea that there were
674 local farmers that were coming together at this historical crossroads and provided a service,versus a rural
675 community activity node that would be focused on where that 1,000 to 5,000 would come for, I guess congregation or
676 there would be a fire station and or a post office or a school, something, it would be an institution. So, to be clear,the
677 proposed amendment is asking to change it from a rural neighborhood activity to a rural community activity. Would
678 that be accurate?
679
680 Tom Altieri: No, all but the last part, so we're talking about expanding the existing rural neighborhood
681 activity node at Morrow Mill and NC 54 to cover the balance of the property,a portion of the property on the north
682 does have some of the neighborhood node within it. So it would be to expand that node to cover the entire property
683 and then for consistency purposes,that's where you get to the matrix and add in the diamond there to allow for that
684 zoning district within the rural neighborhood activity node. It's already allowed in the rural community activity node.
685
686 Beth Bronson: Got it, now that said, does the rural neighborhood activity node have a limit on the acreage
687 that can be designated?
688
689 Tom Altieri: Not in the comprehensive plan, no.
690
691 Beth Bronson: Okay, and I only ask this because a couple of meetings ago we had a conversation about the
692 rural community activity node reaching its limit of rezoned parcels from agricultural residential to general commercial
693 and there was a discussion about whether or not that hit a threshold for what was allowable, not to say that that can't
694 be changed or that can't be amended, but I just wanted to clarify if that would create the same type of limitation.
695
696 Tom Altieri: So, I believe the standard or the threshold that you're referring to is in the unified development
697 ordinance, I don't have that section off the top of my head, but given time I think I could find it. There was at one
698 point a threshold there that applied to how much acreage within the node could be rezoned.
699
700 Beth Bronson: And to be clear,when we were speaking about that,that was the rural community activity
701 node, not the neighborhood, so I don't know,we haven't discussed if there is an actual threshold to the rural
702 neighborhood activity node,so I just wanted to clarify that. Thank you.
703
704 Lamar Proctor: Ms. Kirk and then Statler.
705
706 Charity Kirk: I'm hoping that the applicant will present, but since we're asking questions now,why does the
707 whole parcel need to be converted to a rural activity node? Is it because an agricultural residential parcel doesn't
708 support multi-family dwellings?
709
20
710 Tom Altieri: So the zoning district they have applied for,the MPD-CD is not a permissible district, it's not
711 consistent with either the agricultural residential land use classification that applies to the majority of the property or
712 the rural neighborhood activity node that's on the northern portion.
713
714 Charity Kirk: So, it's potentially easier to bring it into consistency with the rural activity node than agricultural
715 residential.
716
717 Tom Altieri: Yes.
718
719 Charity Kirk: Okay.
720
721 Lamar Proctor: Statler?
722
723 Statler Gilfillen: In your opinion, as I understand,we are being asked to potentially approve a change to the
724 code which may expand the existing situation of what can be done at these nodes. As a professional who has
725 reviewed this,do you have any feelings about what the impact 10-20-30 years of this expansion could be, both
726 realistically and perhaps hypothetically? What would this do to change the county?
727
728 Tom Altieri: I wish my crystal ball was that good, I do have one, but I think the question that you're asking
729 is really more of that countywide question,you know, if the MPD-CD were permitted in all of the rural neighborhood
730 activity nodes countywide,what impact would that have,would it be a catalyst for more requests for MPD-CD zoning
731 within those nodes, I think that's what you're asking and I just, I don't have an answer to that question. It certainly
732 offers additional opportunity if this is made consistent and was not previously. There was the question about the rural
733 community activity nodes which do currently allow MPD-CD, how much has been rezoned in those nodes because
734 they have been on the map since 1981. That answer is there have been none.
735
736 Lamar Proctor: Okay,thank you and just for the public's clarification,we're asking questions to staff so that we
737 fully understand going forward the foundational elements because the unified development ordinance which controls
738 planning and zoning and all rules in the county is very complex, so we want to make sure we have a full
739 understanding before the applicant presents and before we hear public comments so thank y'all for that.
740
741 Whitney Watson: So one other question, if this becomes MPD-CD, does become permitted in the rural
742 neighborhood networks,what will be the distinction then between the community activity nodes and the
743 neighborhood activity nodes. How will staff move forward or the public move forward trying to know which zoning
744 they're in and what their limits or permissions might be available.
745
746 Tom Altieri: I don't have any answer to that question specifically; however I can say that we are currently
747 about a third of the way with an update to our comprehensive land use plan that will include a review of the Future
748 Land Use Map and these classifications and so how those nodes are defined,whether they remain in circles,
749 parcels, is all going to be up for review and discussion and input in public meetings as we update that map.
750
751 Cy Stober: If I may add, it is a very difficult analysis to perform and right now I think that the guidance,the
752 best guidance we have is actually what Ms. Bronson already identified which is that the community activity nodes are
753 intended for larger institutional uses that would draw people from outside that area to that institution, so a fire house,
754 library, post office, etc. But it really is that nuanced in terms of making that determination, as well as the immediate
755 population served,that 1,000 or 1,000 to 5,000 population.
756
757 Beth Bronson: If I may just add on that to Chris's point on why the circle and not a square,why it doesn't
758 follow the parcels,the idea that it is a radius from a point, right, is this idea that there was no guidance or there was
759 no federal guidance for a comprehensive plan, or comprehensive land use plan in 1981, and, in fact, Orange County
760 being one of the first counties, I could be wrong, but definitely in the state, but potentially in the country to implement
21
761 a comprehensive land use plan that was to span and to provide guidance to not only planning boards, but to
762 legislative commissions to make sure decisions. Is that correct?
763
764 Tom Altieri: Certainly within the State of North Carolina, yes.
765
766 Beth Bronson: Okay.
767
768 Lamar Proctor: Any other questions of staff before we move to the applicant presentation?
769
770 Charity Kirk: When talking about the MPD-CD or CD whatever you want, it states in the unified
771 development ordinance that it shall be limited to a transition land use categories. What are transition land use
772 categories?
773
774 Tom Altieri: It's a broad category distinguished from rural land use categories based on the availability of
775 public utilities primarily water and sewer utilities,so transition from rural to urban with those utilities.
776
777 Charity Kirk: So agricultural residential is not a transitional land use category.
778
779 Tom Altieri: Correct. All of the transition and that's a broad land use classification of transition, all of those
780 classifications are adjacent, near our municipalities so none out in the rural areas. These are areas that by and large
781 are served by private wells and septic tanks and that's the distinction there between the rural land use classifications
782 and the transition classifications.
783
784 Charity Kirk: So if we like this project we need to turn it into this rural activity node,we can't leave the
785 activity node the way it is.
786
787 Tom Altieri: Mr. Stober had mentioned that the pleasure of the planning board recommendation and the
788 Board of County Commissioners, per state statutes,they do have the ability to approve a rezoning request that is
789 inconsistent with the plan and therefore the plan shall be amended.
790
791 Charity Kirk: That would mean agricultural residential then would be allowed to have conditional zoning
792 districts applied to it. It would be a permanent mark in the comprehensive plan or something else.
793
794 Cy Stober: So that requires a UDO text amendment and the applicant has proposed a text amendment so
795 there's two amendments,one is for the family care facility, the other is to that exact language that you're referring to
796 for the transition area and the rural community activity node which is footnote No. 1 under the MPD-CD standards,
797 and to include rural neighborhood activity node as one of the other allowable future land use classifications.
798
799 Charity Kirk: But if we don't want to touch the rural activity node, then we would have to touch agricultural
800 residential.
801
802 Cy Stober: Or propose a different type of node to be placed there.
803
804 Charity Kirk: Okay,thank you.
805
806 Lamar Proctor: Okay, any other questions of staff? All right, I think we're ready for the applicant presentation.
807 Thank you very much.
808
809 Marilyn Carter: Is there a limit on the applicant's time?
810
811 Lamar Proctor: 30 minutes.
22
812
813 Edwin Cox: I think we would like to be able to use a little bit more time to get the display of information that addresses
814 your questions up.
815
816 Charity Kirk: So I think it's in your notes that you have to officially request it.
817
818 Edwin Cox: We officially request it.
819
820 Lamar Proctor: At the beginning of your presentation our Rule E sub a says should an applicant anticipate
821 needing more than 30 minutes to present their applicant's, the applicant shall state their requested time allocation at
822 the beginning of their presentation and the planning board shall determine by a majority vote whether additional time
823 be allocated.
824
825 Charity Kirk: So how much time do you want?
826
827 Edwin Cox: An additional 15 minutes,45 minutes. This is a very complicated proposal.
828
829 Charity Kirk: Oh,we know,we've been through complicated proposals before,that's why we set these
830 rules.
831
832 Chris Johnston: I make a motion to accept the additional 15 minutes.
833
834 Beth Bronson: Second.
835
836 Lamar Proctor: Any discussion?
837
838 Dolores Bailey: I do want us to remember that we stop at 10 no matter what so we're cutting the public off if we
839 give them the extra 15 minutes.
840
841 Lamar Proctor: Right, as we stated, I anticipate this will take multiple sessions so the public will get an
842 opportunity to speak if not tonight then at the next session. So, any other discussion about expanding the time from
843 30 to 45 minutes.
844
845 Whitney Watson: Mr. Proctor, I think that since this information was available in advance that the applicant
846 should have known that they had 30 minutes. I am reluctant to shortchange the public, however,we may continue
847 this discussion to a future meeting.We have practical experience where the second and sometimes third meetings
848 are not as helpful as when we have everybody here, so I really advocate for holding to the 30-minute limit.
849
850 Lamar Proctor: All right,any other discussion?
851
852 Statler Gilfillen: I would respectfully differ with the gentleman. I spent 432 pages, I got this yesterday and 1
853 spent most of today reading through this. It is very easy to miss a single detail like that. In all the documents, all the
854 proposals and all the legalese, I'd like to, even though it means extends,and I want to hear the public,don't get me
855 wrong, but I don't want to shut off this organization for 15 minutes or a half an hour longer so that they can make their
856 presentation fairly also.
857
858 Beth Bronson: With that said,would you consider including your motion to extend the meeting until 10:15?
859
860 Lamar Proctor: So we have a seconded motion to extend the applicant's time to 45 minutes, any further
861 discussion before I take a vote? I'm hearing none, all those in favor of extending the applicant's presentation to 45
862 minutes raise your hand. All those opposed raise your hand. Okay, I believe it's opposed,you have 30 minutes.
23
863
864 MOTION BY Chris Johnston to extend applicants presentation time to 45 minutes. Seconded by Beth
865 Bronson
866
867 IN FAVOR: Statler Gilfillen, Chris Johnston, Liz Kalies, Beth Bronson.
868 OPPOSED: Marilyn Carter, Steve Kaufmann, Lamar Proctor, Charity Kirk, Whitney Watson, Dolores Bailey
869 MOTION FAILS 6 to 4
870
871 Edwin Cox: Thank you, my name's Edwin Cox, I'm the president of Hands Four Development Cooperative.
872 That's the applicant. So we're going to have to speed things up a bit,we will refer to Hands Four as H4D through our
873 presentation. The name of our development's Fiddlehead Corner and the application's a group of coordinated
874 proposed amendments that you've heard about to the UDO,the Future Land Use Map and the comprehensive plan,
875 and approval of this set of amendments would allow our organization to create an intentional community for people
876 who share a common interest in the arts. There's a strong emphasis in this community on senior living and aging in
877 place, as we'll talk about later. So to tell you more about how this came about, I'm pleased to introduce Mareah
878 Steketee who is the president of our sister organization, Triangle Traditional Music and Dance Retirement Society.
879
880 Mareah Steketee: Thank you for the opportunity to present tonight. We're hoping to share a lot of information in
881 a short period of time, shorter than expected. 2T, H4D and Fiddlehead Corner are three related organizations, 2T is
882 a nonprofit that was established formally in 2014. It is primarily an educational and social organization now. We have
883 offered formal orientations about aging and aging in place,what does it take to end life gracefully for over 300 people
884 to our orientations. Of those 300 people, a hundred are now 2T members, Hand Four Development was developed
885 or established in 2023, it's a cooperative, a business entity,there are 34 members who are contributing financially
886 and of their time. This is all based on volunteer work done with a great team of professionals which you'll hear from
887 tonight. Fiddlehead Corner, as you know, is our hope to be able to live together, age in place, senior living, has a
888 number of different core interests that we hold all in high value. Reasonably priced housing is a bit of a conflict for us
889 because we're hoping, planning to provide a significant number of amenities for people, including a large common
890 house which will become a living room and activity areas,shared spaces, and so it makes it more difficult along with
891 a family care home,two family care homes if the community is built out,to hold costs down. We're very cognizant of
892 costs,we're also an environmentally sensitive group. We dance,we're creative individuals, dance, play music, sing,
893 carry on and have a lot of different commitments to each other. We've done care teams for many, many years, about
894 20 years of care teams and I could talk more about that, but our professionals are here, Scott Radway,John Felton,
895 Mike is in the audience, Kevin Davidson will speak. We've continued to use, as you can read in the very long
896 application, a number of different professionals that have guided us along the way. I'm going to turn this over to Ed
897 again. Thank you.
898
899 Edwin Cox: Thank you Maria. As we set the goal for ourselves as an intentional community for living as
900 we aged,we wanted features that would allow us remain in the community as our abilities declined. And from the
901 experience of our parents and others that we knew,we recognized the pitfalls of trying to live in our own home, so we
902 concluded that some sort of communal living was our best solution. We knew about CCRCs and you're familiar with
903 them, as well. They're a good many positive attributes, there's independent living but step up care as your needs
904 increase. Assisted living, skilled nursing and memory care. But a lot of activities and social interaction as well. The
905 negative attributes are the complex licensing and financing requirements, steep entry fees, often nonrefundable, high
906 monthly costs, and long waiting lists. I don't know if you've tried to think ahead and get on Carol Woods or Carolina
907 Meadows,you've got to think well ahead. Our approach has been to take the best features of the CCRCs and leave
908 the rest behind, so we wanted a variety of housing that was right sized and had universal design,we wanted
909 clustering to be close so mobility would be easy for all people of all abilities. We wanted activities planned and
910 managed by the creative community of residents, a continuum of care, care teams to look after one another,family
911 care home, inclusive governance, ownership with equity and no special licensing other than the family care homes.
912 So in order to implement this,we had the idea of two complementary characteristics, one is to have a compact
913 community that would facilitate interaction and mobility as I discussed earlier, and it would develop on a small portion
24
914 of the land and we would then conserve a large percentage of the remaining land and undisturbed forests. This type
915 of development embodies the ideas contained in the flexible development conservation cluster in section 7.12.5B of
916 the UDO. We mentioned these synergistic aspects,the compactness of the developed area and maximizing
917 conserved acreage to our master planning,John Felton who you'll hear from just now, and he started work on the
918 project and he'll tell you about what he came up with.
919
920 John Felton: Thank you, good evening, my name's John Felton,architect and senior designer at Cline.
921 We're a landscape and planning and architectural firm. So in our web sessions the group gave us great opportunities
922 and a lot of feedback. What they wanted was really in line with either a TND development or a compact
923 neighborhood. Compact neighborhoods are really just shrinking the built, creating sort of shared spaces, celebrating
924 common spaces, preserving natural topography and space and de-emphasizing the car. We looked at the TND
925 model which basically is an alley loaded street front for this group and how they wanted to live, the idea of a pocket
926 neighborhood basically and Ross Chapin,you're seeing some examples of his work. He practices in the Portland/
927 Seattle area,fantastic work and you can see from the images that the car is minimized,the car is still on the street
928 but it's on the back side of the living space. These small cottages and small homes really,the front porch is to a
929 natural environment with rain gardens and decomposed gravel walkways so there's less impervious surfaces, and it's
930 a place that celebrates what they want to celebrate which is each other and so they didn't need a big yard, a big lot,
931 they don't want that. They want to live closer together in a place that allows them to celebrate each other and their
932 life and then also multiple or different living opportunities so that they can age in place and not be forced to,when
933 they're too old to maintain that house,to have to leave and leave their friends. So, it's a purpose built idea and what's
934 great about it is that when you're driving along the roads you'll never see it, you'll have an entry,you'll have two
935 entries and then the development is compactly located inside the property. It's a great group and really, I think we've
936 come up with a wonderful way to put housing on this property. Thank you.
937
938 Scott Radway: Good evening, Scott Radway, planning consultant. I have lived here in Orange County since
939 1989 and have followed many of their projects through the process for Orange County and also for Hillsborough and
940 one of the projects I worked on was the Waterstone project and figuring out how to blend the sort of edge of urban
941 and the edge of I would call rural,which it had been. First I want to talk about the environmental framework for the
942 project to get it towards the design and what defined the design and how we got together, streams and regulated
943 buffers, slope, drainage analysis,water supply, soil suitability and many of the documents the County has and others,
944 it talks about the ability to use public water, public wells, and private water systems and to use collective wastewater
945 treatment areas in areas where the soils and other aspects are appropriate and we believe this is one. Within the
946 packet,you have a number of reviews by the North Carolina Department of Environmental Quality,which is another
947 layer above the County and those pieces of information are there. This is the property; I think it is the image that you
948 see as clear as the one I see up on the wall.
949
950 Beth Bronson: It is.
951
952 Scott Radway: Okay.What we have here is the property that's outlined and four photographs of the types of
953 streams that run through the site. The streams corridors, and the streams are identified by the county stamp so
954 we've been working with that information as a core piece of our activity. These two images present almost the same
955 information. On the left is the piece of property we're talking about and is adjoining properties. Immediately to the
956 east is the flood plain, the stream corridors are identified but we've identified on here are the stream corridors and the
957 buffers that are required for them. Some cases they're 85 feet and some cases they're 60 feet, you don't see it on
958 the screen so well but there's an additional 25 foot drip zone or critical root zone buffer area outside of this specific
959 distance buffer. The property is really a pretty gentle piece of property, 95 percent of the property is less than a 15
960 percent slope which you can see on here. A25 percent slope,which make up less than 1 percent of the site, and
961 they are, as all know in Orange County, they are part of the stream corridor alignments most of the place, and then
962 there's 15 to 25 percent slopes. What you see in the middle, it looks like a whitewashed area basically between 0
963 and 15 percent slopes and that's 96 percent of the property and it's a pretty gentle piece of property. Of course what
964 we were looking at was also geological formations for water supply and then for wastewater there is the soils. And I
25
965 did want to make one comment about the question that was asked about how this might affect the rest of the county
966 and just what we have gone through here.This is in the Haw River watershed,we've got stream buffers,we've got
967 roadway connection pieces and we've got a number of things. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if there was
968 another identical piece of property and that is just to say that looking as the staff has talked about into what might be
969 in other places in the county, you really have to be looking at a specific analysis of what's that watershed,whether it's
970 a protected watershed and some other things like that. And that just, expands on the work they have to do. Thank
971 you.
972
973 Edwin Cox: Very briefly on the water,we had a hydrogeologist cross the property back and forth, back and
974 forth with a magnetometer and generate this map that you see before you. The red areas are areas of high magnetic
975 strength that represent iron,that is in formations called diabase dikes and they were looking specifically for diabase
976 because it is highly correlated with a very good source of water, typically 40 gallons per minute or more in the wells
977 that are drilled in the areas of diabase. There has also been a U.S. Geologic Survey of 600 wells in Orange County.
978 It was published around 2000 but correlated the area in Orange County with the amount of well yield and in this
979 particular location in the county, the average well yield was 50 to 75 gallons per minute, so we're pretty confident that
980 we've got water down there and it's in cracked,fractured rock, it's not in sedimentary rock so the probability of
981 interference between wells our geologist tells us is very low. And this is the man telling you about the wastewater
982 system, Kevin Davidson.
983
984 Kevin Davidson: My name is Kevin Davidson, I'm a wastewater engineer. I'm here with my colleagues Jasmine
985 and Chris. We are AWT engineers and soils scientists,we're a local company that's been around for quite a while.
986 We routinely help out residents in Orange County. We work with many folks here, are vested in it, been here a long
987 time, matter of fact we're still working with the local fire station. We will be the ones that help out the development for
988 the wastewater system.We have looked at the soils and we will continue to look at that. We also will put together the
989 conceptual plan which is a plan that we have worked with many times throughout North Carolina,the fundamental
990 part of is called the step system to treatment with ultimately drip dispersal, and we've done that throughout North
991 Carolina. We've had very good success with it. During the question and answer time, I'd be glad to discuss any
992 particular components or how we have helped the residents of Orange County and how this system and the
993 experience that we have with this system, be glad to answer any questions that you, that you may have.
994
995 John Felton: I guess I could read this, but I'd rather get to the other images, but if you have any questions,
996 let me know on this. Well, I guess the information here, 150 dwelling units,that's in 3 phases, 1.66 dwelling units per
997 acre, all ownership dwellings,90 single family dwellings, 60 multi-family flats, 300 maximum bedrooms, 260 to 285
998 estimated residences, internal road construction is to NCDOT standard and three development phases, as I said,
999 essentially equal, so 50, 50 and 50. This is the overall master plan and you see the development is nested at the top
1000 of the site along the upper stream buffer with two access points, one Gold Mine and one off the Morrow Mill. And
1001 Morrow Mill, the added left and right turn lanes will be added to those two entries and then internal road construction
1002 to NCDOT standards, so that's a loop road inside.This shows the phase,the proposed phasing for the project. You'll
1003 see Phase 1, P1,that includes the entry drive for Morrow Mill to the P1 phase and then that loop road extends to the
1004 first phase of the waste treatment plant and to the recycling center,they're all in the blue color. In Phase 1 and we
1005 may get to this, but in Phase 1 the community building would be started, in Phase 2, and that's in the yellow color,
1006 you will have additional single-family residences, townhouses and stacked flat buildings. You'll also have the
1007 community gardens, storm water management at that point and by the end of that phase we'll need to do Well No. 2
1008 to comply. Also, in Phase 2 you'll have the completion of the internal loop road out to Gold Mine. And then in Phase
1009 3, if you can see the colors here, Phase 3 is over on the left-hand side, that'll be the final phase of 50 units, they'll be
1010 30 single family houses and 20 multi-family with additional storm water control.
1011
1012 Scott Radway: Four or five slides here that really reflect elements of what's required as information from the
1013 applicant that fits within the MPD-CD and all of the various layers that are in that. Our requirement is to identify what
1014 uses are in what pods on the site and what uses are not in what pods on the site, and so what we have here is Pod
1015 Al which has all of the residential development, it has the community buildings, it has the family care facilities,two
26
1016 buildings that are six persons each as a maximum. It has open space and recreation and if you look at the plans that
1017 have been provided whether they're small scale or large scale, you can see some of the detailed information. Pod
1018 No. 2 is about an acre to an acre and a quarter in size and that's where the wastewater treatment would be, but it's
1019 also where solid waste and recycling collection would be and it's also where we would use to maintain maintenance
1020 equipment, maintenance vehicles, things like that. Pod 3, 11 acres,this would be the area that would be the primary
1021 area for the wastewater distribution, that's subsurface, and it would also include a repair area and that is for the full
1022 complement of the 150 or so dwellings, plus the community buildings that are there. Pod 4 is 7 acres and Pods 5 is 6
1023 acres, they are proposed to be retained in their existing treed character. Pod 3 would retain most of its tree character
1024 even though the drip system can wind through the trees and that's part of the elements of what's required to be
1025 submitted. There's a hierarchy of roads that might not have been so easy to see in the lesser plans. These are all to
1026 be built to NCDOT constructions standards. There's loop roads, they've been reviewed for emergency vehicle
1027 access, FedEx, UPS and all of the other things that we now get delivered at home on a much more regular basis.
1028 Tree preservation and landscape plan. It's not really possible to see what's on here at this scale but in the large
1029 scale drawings we have, it includes information,the ordinances require street trees,yard buffer trees, parking lot
1030 trees, parking lot shrubs and then in the perimeter buffer which is a 100-foot buffer or 75-foot buffer that goes around
1031 the complete site, there is a requirement for how many trees of what type and what size are in those buffers. We're
1032 going to retain these natural buffers and augment them as needed in order to meet those requirements.
1033
1034 Dolores Bailey: Mr. Chair, can we do a time check?
1035
1036 Lamar Proctor: I have them until 8:50.
1037
1038 Scott Radway: 8:50? Okay, I'll use one more minute then. This shows you essentially what is going to be
1039 green on the site when we're completed, the perimeter buffer,the stream buffers,the treed areas,within the
1040 development area which has the residential development,there's a lot of area that will not become impervious, in
1041 fact,the site right now as we have it designed and laid out and measured it as we can at this level of detail,we're
1042 about 19 percent for the entire site. My 1 minute's up,thank you.
1043
1044 Edwin Cox: You've heard from Mr.Altieri and Mr. Stober about what changes are needed in detail, so I'll
1045 just summarize them here for you to look at a moment. Future Land Use Map amendment to classify our entire
1046 parcel as a rural neighborhood activity node,comprehensive plan amendment to link MPD-CD and RNAN. The
1047 zoning atlas amendment to rezone the parcel to MPD-CD and the UDO text amendment to put in some text where
1048 it's required. I thought it was important to emphasize that you can't just apply for these changes to the
1049 comprehensive plan and the Future Land Use Map and say, it's because I want it, it requires justification in terms of
1050 the objectives of Orange County as defined in the comprehensive plan, so our justification is that if the changes are
1051 approved the success of our project beneficially addresses a number of objectives outlined in the master aging plan.
1052 And these specifically are housing Goal three, choices, quality and affordability of housing. We will have houses,
1053 duplexes and condos,so those are our choices. Universal design that will allow people of all abilities to use any of
1054 the residential areas and it'll be high quality construction. Social interaction, Goal 1;there will be buildings and
1055 spaces for that purpose,that will be our community center,our walking trails, community garden. There will be
1056 mobility options. We will have short distances from residences so that wheelchairs and mobility devices such as
1057 scooters can get to the places they need to go. There will be participation in engagement through activities led by
1058 the creative community, health and wellbeing resources,we have a continuum of care with care teams that are being
1059 planned and a fitness center and there will be communication and information to meet Goal 8, a high speed Internet
1060 connectivity and volunteer engagement. So Fiddlehead Corner will help fill the gap in support that is expected by the
1061 tsunami of new aging adults in Orange County over the next few years and I did also want to mention sustainability.
1062 Environmental sustainability is a high priority among our members and we, many of us have been engaged in local
1063 and state sustainability efforts,the conservation cluster master plan design will preserve two-thirds of our land in
1064 open space. We will have solar energy to generate electricity and energy efficiency in building design and Kevin
1065 didn't get to tell you about our reclaimed water, but we're going to have the ability from this advanced secondary
1066 treatment system to use the water for things like toilet flushing and therefore, save a lot of clean water that we
27
1067 otherwise would use for those purposes. Thank you for your time and attention. We'd ask our H41D members who
1068 are in the audience to stand up and show you who we are.
1069
1070 Lamar Proctor: Thank you for that presentation. If it's any consolation to the applicant, this particular board is
1071 very robust in its questioning so I imagine that any information you feel you didn't get an opportunity to present you
1072 will get to explore with this board, so is the board ready to move to the question portion for the applicant?
1073
1074 Chris Johnston: Will we be following our normal procedure going down the line?
1075
1076 Lamar Proctor: Yes.All right, so Statler if you'd like, do you have any questions?
1077
1078 Statler Gilfillen: I do have one, and going through all the information, and I see a lot of good in your proposal,
1079 but the schedule is there,the numbers of units, can you give me some idea of what the estimated budget when this is
1080 completed will be? What is the financial impact in Orange County for this, approximately?
1081
1082 Edwin Cox: I estimated the total budget is between 60 and 75 million for full build out to the 150 units but
1083 it's going to be in phases so that will be comparably less for each phase.
1084
1085 Statler Gilfillen Thank you.
1086
1087 Lamar Proctor: Ms. Carter?
1088
1089 Marilyn Carter: Mr. Chair, I have several questions, so I don't mind deferring to the other end of the table to
1090 come back my way.
1091
1092 Lamar Proctor: Let's stick with the normal protocol, because you may ask questions that others are planning
1093 to ask that will get answered.
1094
1095 Marilyn Carter: Okay,thank you. Well,first off,thank you for the extensive preparation. Your packet, I think it
1096 made for a lot of very good reading for all of us over the last number of days. I really appreciate the time that it takes
1097 to put something like this proposal together and of course the staffs time as well. Because we do look at the
1098 comprehensive plan very closely, I have a question about future land use in the comprehensive plan that I'll ask in a
1099 moment. I did want to, I have several questions, one has to do with a why, in terms of the consideration for the
1100 conservation cluster,and it may be Statler to chime in here, but with respect to the proposal and the MPD-CD
1101 designation,was there a compelling reason why a structure like that,such that was approved recently for the
1102 Stonewall project,which was also a conservation cluster using AR zoning, I believe, is there a compelling reason why
1103 that wasn't pursued in this particular zoning request?
1104
1105 Cy Stober: So, I can speak to our analysis,which is two-fold. One is any subdivision creating more than
1106 20 lots is required to pursue some sort of rezoning. So,the recommendation in the UDO is residential conditional
1107 district; however, master plan development, because it's a large complex subdivision featuring multiple housing
1108 types,the definition of master plan development includes large subdivisions and multi-and mixed-use developments.
1109 The incorporation of the community center and the family care facilities, and my interpretation, and this was,Tom can
1110 attest to, a subject of robust discussion among the staff, my interpretation was the MPD-CD was the most
1111 appropriate zoning district to be applied to what Hands Four was proposing.
1112
1113 Marilyn Carter: Okay,thank you.
1114
1115 Charity Kirk: What were the other options?
1116
28
1117 Cy Stober: Well, because the other option would've been residential conditional district, but that doesn't
1118 include the nonresidential features, because there's several outparcels that have primary uses that are completely
1119 nonresidential. And when you are involving more than one primary housing type-so they have detached single
1120 family homes,attached single family homes,which are also known as townhomes, and multi-family structures-the
1121 Master Plan Development,just definition or description, lends itself exactly to that type of community,or that type of
1122 conditional district.
1123
1124 Marilyn Carter: So just a quick follow-up then to confirm, if the community didn't have those mixed types of
1125 housing opportunities,then it would be more appropriate to consider an agricultural residential cluster subdivision. Is
1126 that correct?
1127
1128 Cy Stober: If it was entirely single-family residential homes with no nonresidential components or maybe
1129 an incidental outparcel for a pool or something like that, then yes,this would be an R-CD application.
1130
1131 Marilyn Carter: Understand. So, a follow-on question has to do with family care facilities, and as someone
1132 who is a primary caregiver for an elder, I'm very interested in your proposal in terms of all the aspects and the
1133 comprehensiveness of it. But family care facilities can take a number of different forms under statute, and so I'm
1134 curious about whether the family care facilities are targeted to be family care homes,which would be, I imagine, in
1135 single family or multi-family up to six residents, or whether you're envisioning something larger under the flexibility
1136 provided by the MPD-CD designation.
1137
1138 Edwin Cox: No,we'd be going for six residents in a facility and up to two facilities. We'll build one and if
1139 we need more capacity,the second. And it would be for assistance with activities of daily living and possibly for
1140 cognitive problems.
1141
1142 Marilyn Carter: Thank you.
1143
1144 Cy Stober: And if I may, Ms. Carter,that was the substance of the slides and the primary motive for staff
1145 to recommend the definition update because 160D-907 limits the number of inhabitants to a family care facility to six
1146 individuals. So,we would regulate that use to be limited to no more than six per structure.
1147
1148 Marilyn Carter: Thank you for that clarification. Question about the septic system, and it may be that
1149 Mr. Davidson might be able to,or the team, might be able to answer, but it has to do with the nature of the primary
1150 treatment. And some of us have heard about issues in other neighborhoods that are tied into the MBR approach for
1151 handling the solid waste treatment. So,what type of system are you proposing in that up-front stage of treatment?
1152
1153 Kevin Davidson: Okay. Appreciate the question there. So,what we're proposing for the whole development,
1154 the first piece of primary treatment is called a step tank, and it's very similar to a septic tank that many of us have that
1155 are on septic systems at our house, a traditional septic tank. You collect the waste from the building,and in a step
1156 tank-step is S-T-E-P, and it stands for Septic Tank Effluent Pump-and in that tank,we're going to collect those
1157 solids, that waste,that comes from,whether it's a house, a row of houses, a community building. We're going to
1158 collect it in that first initial tank. That tank serves as a traditional septic tank in the sense that we're settling the solids,
1159 we're letting any scum layer float to the top and- I apologize,this is my day-to-day thing, so when we deal with solids
1160 and scum, that's normal septic conversations for us poop people-so we deal with that. And so,we settle those
1161 solids, we let that scum layer rise. In the outlet side of the tank-and there was a slide, and I believe it's in your
1162 packet there; it shows a schematic of a STEP tank-we have a pump vault unit, and inside that pump vault unit is a
1163 high-head turbine pump very similar to a well style pump. That filter in that pump vault protects that pump from any
1164 solids, and we're trying to draw through the clear zone of this tank. So, if you picture those solids are down low,the
1165 scum layer is high,and essentially as clean as I can be is that center of that tank. We're drawing water through that
1166 clear zone of that tank through that filter and into that pump. Now,that pump, as I said, it's a high-head pump. We're
1167 able to send that filtered effluent-it's not wastewater at this point; it's filtered effluent-we're able to send that quite
29
1168 some distance if we need to and also at some elevation if we need to. This collection system now is also small-
1169 diameter pipe, so it's very unobtrusive in terms of how we put in the collection. We're able to follow the contour,
1170 follow the roads. And John and I actually had gone through the development, and we had located where we would
1171 put several of these STEP tanks to serve maybe a row of houses,one of the care facilities that Ed was just talking
1172 about or larger versions of that same style tank to serve each of the multi-family units. In the end,we can bring those
1173 lines together, and that was another detail that's there. It's called a STEP connection detail, and think about it almost
1174 like a reverse water system. So, everybody's house that's on a community or municipal water system,that main
1175 water line comes down through the road, and then we all have our water taps that feed into our individual house.
1176 That's how they charge us, right? They go look at that meter. This is almost the same idea in the reverse. And so,
1177 we have the STEP tank at the house,small-diameter line that goes to a STEP connection system,which is a back
1178 flow, some ball valves, and now we have a common line. Again, generally, it's small-diameter, 2-, 3-inch-diameter,
1179 generally not any larger than that. And we take that line,we bring it together and then we bring it over to our
1180 treatment system. You referenced, ma'am, a MBR system, Membrane Bioreactor. Well,we're using on this, or
1181 proposing, it's called a recirculating media filter. The actual product is called AdvanTex. I started designing with
1182 AdvanTex back in, I think, 2006, 2007, somewhere in that ballpark. It has been permitted in North Carolina for use
1183 since early 2000, about 2001. The AdvanTex technology is developed and manufactured by a company called
1184 Orenco Systems that is out in the west coast, in Oregon. It's a very strong company. They're international. They've
1185 got projects all over the place. Very, very large number of them are in North Carolina. We've worked with hundreds
1186 of them in North Carolina. There's many of them,the same technology, in Orange County. We have designed,
1187 permitted, helped to install,certified,we operate several systems with this same technology throughout Orange
1188 County,throughout North Carolina, and we've even done some work in Virginia. But the technology is proven. It's a
1189 great system for residential style waste, and it very, very much allows,when you have the ebbs and flows that come
1190 with domestic waste products, houses,this type of system works very well with that. And part of the application is
1191 actually a report that we had done several years ago,where we actually went in-and I will admit, I'm sometimes
1192 skeptical of- I get sales people come to my office and say, Kevin,we see you do a lot of waste water work;we'd like
1193 you to design with our system. And so,one of my first questions is,well, let me see your data. Is your system going
1194 to work? Oh,yes,we have all this data from Utah, California. We have data from North Carolina, stuff that we have
1195 operated that I have installed ourself. It's a recirculating media filter. It's an entirely different technology than an
1196 MBR.
1197
1198 Marilyn Carter: Thank you, Mr. Davidson. I just wanted to understand if it was different from an MBR and that
1199 doesn't mean MBRs, or the membrane bioreactors are bad. It just means that there are certain considerations that
1200 we've all heard about in the public about the concerns about those kinds of systems in neighborhoods like Briar
1201 Chapel and others that did not apply here. Is that correct?
1202
1203 Kevin Davidson: We are not using that system here. My colleague, Chris, knows even more about that system
1204 than I do.
1205
1206 Marilyn Carter: All right. Thank you for that clarification,and I have another question, but I'm going to pass on
1207 because I suspect my other question might get asked by someone else. Thank you, Mr. Chair, thank you.
1208
1209 Steven Kaufmann: I'm going to pass.
1210
1211 Lamar Proctor: Okay, I think it would be helpful if you could go back from my questions to the land-use pods
1212 slide. I thought that was a very helpful diagram of proposed uses. If we can find it.
1213
1214 Scott Radway: There we go.
1215
1216 Lamar Proctor: So, my question in the center area where it's not designated that just says land-use pods.
1217 What's the intention on that area of the property?
1218
30
1219 Scott Radway: It's not their property.
1220
1221 Lamar Proctor: It's not y'all's property?
1222 Scott Radway: It's not part of this application. The person who owns that could speak to that if you want that
1223 as an answer. I can say how the pieces of property fit together in a fashion.
1224
1225 Lamar Proctor: Sure.
1226
1227 Scott Radway: One point that may have gotten lost in the process is,the staging process,which we have one
1228 here, goes and fits with some of the ordinances that the County has and some of the considerations about
1229 emergency services and other things. So,you have Phase 1 in Pod 1,which you saw. We have an entry from
1230 Morrow Mill Road that comes into that, and along that edge,there is a contract agreement to provide an opportunity
1231 to connect from the center property to that property,and there is a relationship buffer that you can't quite see in here
1232 of a set back from the property line, and that's part of a contract agreement with that property owner.
1233
1234 Chris Johnston: One of those slides does show the Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 with the colors.
1235
1236 Scott Radway: Sorry, I'm trying not to page through too many slides. So, Phase 1, 50 dwelling units relates to
1237 a well and it relates to traffic volume, and it relates to a number of other things. Phase 2,which is another 50 units,
1238 relates to emergency service needs and where,at that point,you need two entrances for emergency services to the
1239 site. So,that brings us to the point where we have primary entrance on Morrow Mill Road. We have a secondary or
1240 minor entrance, if you will, on Gold Mine Loop Road that needs to be active for the third phase to be started. So,that
1241 needs to be connected at that point in time. You see a funny setback of the property line over there. That's actually
1242 a strange, but perfectly functional form, of having a wider right of way along that road so that the property owner that
1243 owns the remaining 35 acres here in the center can have individual lots in areas that have good soils, and they can
1244 have access to this secondary entrance or this roadway where we anticipate substantially less traffic in and out, even
1245 at full completion. The property's zoned AR. It's a bona fide farm at this point. It can do all the things that a bona
1246 fide farm can do with its property, or it can develop residential, and so that's sort of the relationship. One is to be
1247 compatible, connective,and still let the property owner from whom this larger piece was bought do what he wishes to
1248 do for his family and his children in the future.
1249
1250 Lamar Proctor: And the applicant's proposed amendment will expand RNAN through the crescent-shaped
1251 property that's the subject of tonight,correct?
1252
1253 Scott Radway: Yeah, correct.
1254
1255 Lamar Proctor: And so, any future zoning of that is a separate question and would be, if it was brought into
1256 MPD-CD zoning, it would have to go through the same process.
1257
1258 Cy Stober: Yes, absolutely. To be frank, it was included in the initial application but due to its bona fide
1259 farm use and the limitations zoning might place on that versus the existing AR zoning and its farm status, my
1260 recommendation to the applicant was to remove it from the application.
1261
1262 Lamar Proctor: Okay,thank you. There was also a small portion that was in the resource protection overlay in
1263 one corner of the property, so I was wondering how that was addressed or how that was taken into consideration into
1264 the site plan.
1265
1266 Scott Radway: Does it show up on this slide, or is it in the one that's the more environmental slide?
1267
1268 Lamar Proctor: It's in our overlay on the future land use map.
1269
31
1270 Scott Radway: Okay, I think I know what you mean. The piece it's in, I think you're speaking about the
1271 environmental piece that sticks in the tiny corner of the property.
1272
1273 Lamar Proctor: Correct.
1274
1275 Scott Radway: So,this was the east side,flowing from west to east, the northern piece, and its various stream
1276 channels in here flowing, again,west to east getting into this higher-level stream,which also then has a flood plain,
1277 so it's a FEMA flood plain and regulated. Where we overlap is like 8,000 square feet or so out of 90 acres in an area
1278 that's protected by your stream buffer ordinance and the state's regulations also. So, one of the review comments
1279 from the state was it's there, make sure it's dealt with, and that's sort of a recommendation both to us and to you as
1280 the County. What we haven't shown on here, is we have ended our buffers at our property line because we don't
1281 want to be presumptive and draw a buffer on somebody else's property line. It may not be a buffer on their property
1282 line based on their use in the future, and so we've tried not to get fingerprints on something and 5 years from now it
1283 gets interpreted incorrectly.
1284
1285 Lamar Proctor: I guess my question,generally, is it seems like the site plan is consistent with preserving the
1286 rural character to the degree that you can. I was just wondering if you want to comment a little more about
1287 preservation, and green spaces, and protection of the stream buffers on this property and how that fits into the overall
1288 design.
1289
1290 Scott Radway: Well, as you heard Ed talk about,who's a principal, and the members of H4D and 2T,the sort
1291 of marching orders was,this looks like a piece of property that's gentle to build on, it does have environmental
1292 pieces,they want a lot of trails and want a lot of other things for active adults, not necessarily baseball fields. But, in
1293 looking at the property, then the challenge to John Felton and to 2T and working on this together was how do we, in
1294 essence, be invisible to the public, if you will, on the roads. What we have is one roadway entrance that'll come from
1295 Morrow Mill Road and come into the site and except as you go past it and probably have a 60-foot-wide opening in
1296 what's now treed land;you will notice that it's anything other than we have to provide turning lanes for NCDOT's
1297 evaluation. The entrance character on Gold Mine will even be a lesser impact because it can be really simply, it's
1298 going to be a 20-foot-wide paved surface because that's what emergency services needs. But, it goes through a
1299 forest on a pass where we're trying to use the existing logging road that was in there from many, many years ago,
1300 and so we're trying to have it as little at the edge of the property that somebody would see. If you like speed limit
1301 kinds of considerations,or if you like baseball and know how far a ball can go at a hundred miles an hour, and how
1302 many feet in how many seconds. People driving by those entrances will have about 3 seconds to notice that they're
1303 there. And, that's sort of a sales pitch, but it's also real.
1304
1305 Lamar Proctor: And you talked about you were going to incorporate solar and minimize any light pollution. I
1306 was wondering if you could just comment on those things.
1307
1308 Scott Radway: I can. Solar,the layout, I'm not going to go back to the layout in detail, but the layout with what
1309 you can see on here and, obviously,we have 24,25 acres in this area that's going to be disturbed, and some of it will
1310 be tree removal, and that's part of what your ordinance addresses for the number of plantings and trees we have to
1311 put back in. But what you see in here in what are the single-family or the townhouse rooftops, there's also a
1312 detached garage. So,you have a 1,200 to 1,500 single-floor, two-bedroom house with a detached garage space, or
1313 two-parking spaces. The roofs and the roofs of both of those, a separate garage and a separate house,can be fit
1314 with a roof line that will go whatever direction it needs to go to capture the sun as the sun rotates through the site.
1315 So, a part of the ability to work with solar and part of the ability to do some of the other pieces is because the building
1316 model is going to be one in which the flexibility to change the shape of a garage, or not necessarily the shape of it,
1317 but the roof orientation of the garage, is possible for every piece of property in here so each piece of property can get
1318 an orientation that does that, and that's the level of detail that the H4D and the 2T people charged John with figuring
1319 out.
1320
32
1321 Lamar Proctor: Okay,thank you.
1322
1323 Charity Kirk: Okay, I think I have some questions for Cy too. I don't find the R-CD in the UDO. Can you
1324 point me to the page where that conditional district is detailed—
1325
1326 Cy Stober: In the UDO? I have to use my phone because I've been kicked off the Wi-Fi.
1327
1328 Beth Bronson: Is anybody else having an issue?
1329
1330 Charity Kirk: No, it's down.
1331
1332 Tom Altieri: Page 3-61 has the list of all the conditional districts.
1333
1334 Charity Kirk: But is there, you know how all the other zones have their own multi-page spread of what's
1335 allowed?
1336
1337 Cy Stober: Yes, it should be right before MPD-CD if you'll just give me a moment. I apologize for the
1338 delay.
1339
1340 Charity Kirk: And I ask because it seems like the crux of the issue is where do we want multi-family housing
1341 and where is multi-family housing allowed. I don't feel like the rural neighborhood activity note is meant for a
1342 residential area? It seems like it's very much into local small businesses and sort of providing a community hub, and
1343 this is not that, and the only reason why it's being put in that is because there's multi-family housing here.
1344
1345 Beth Bronson: The MPD-CD district is what they're applying for.
1346
1347 Charity Kirk: Yes, but you can't put a conditional district in agricultural residential. You can put one of these
1348 MP things in agricultural residential, so you have to move it into a rural neighborhood activity node in order to allow
1349 for the multifamily housing and the other amenities. Is that right?
1350
1351 Cy Stober: Yes and the nonresidential components of the principal uses, primary use of the community
1352 center,the family care facilities, by my analysis,would have necessitated an MPD-CD zoning as well and that would
1353 be my recommendation to both the applicant and the board, and the analysis, because it's not exclusively residential.
1354
1355 Charity Kirk: Right, so the question for the board, I think, is where do we want multifamily housing and
1356 some of these other amenities, so the question is how many of these multifamily units, how many units are in a
1357 building? Like what size are these multifamily housing units?
1358
1359 Beth Bronson: 150.
1360
1361 Charity Kirk: And that's a total of total families in the whole development.
1362
1363 Beth Bronson: One hundred fifty residences.
1364
1365 Charity Kirk: Yeah, but some of them are single family.
1366
1367 Beth Bronson: Three hundred bedrooms. I apologize.
1368
1369 Scott Radway: We're planning, in the full build out,three buildings, each building has 20 units.
1370
33
1371 Charity Kirk: Okay, so in the county,where are other large-scale apartment buildings or apartment buildings
1372 like this located? It seems like they're located much more, like if you look at R-2, R-2 was talking about being closer
1373 to cities, it seemed,for me. So is there a precedent for a development with these multifamily housings further in the
1374 county? Are there any examples you can think of?
1375
1376 Cy Stober: The only one that comes to my mind, and I'll defer to Tom given his experience with the county
1377 will be much longer than mine, but Settlers Point included some multifamily in it but that was being served by Town of
1378 Hillsborough Water and Sewer. That's at the present location of RTLP, south of the interstate. But otherwise,to my
1379 knowledge, multifamily has not been permitted through zoning by the county in recent history. We do a lot of
1380 duplexes by right. We see a limited number of those in the county. They're oddities, I'd say. But not, nothing more
1381 dense than duplexes.
1382
1383 Charity Kirk: So, if we want to allow this,the easiest way to allow it is to go into this rural neighborhood
1384 activity node and sort of pull it, pull all the land. Because that's where we can do the MPD-CD.
1385
1386 Cy Stober: So those are the corresponding amendments to the comprehensive plan and the LIDO as well.
1387 The amendment to the MPD-CD along with the future land use classifications where MPD-CD is allowed,which is
1388 both the UDO amendment and the Appendix F amendment to the comprehensive plan, and then expansion of that
1389 node in the Future Land Use Map. So at present, no,you can't,that cannot be done. It would require these other
1390 amendments that have been applied for by the applicant to be approved.
1391
1392 Charity Kirk: So to the applicant,why should we allow this new and novel thing so far out into the county,
1393 this development that doesn't have a precedent?
1394
1395 Scott Radway: I don't want you to take this personally, but this kind of a design is not new and it is not novel,
1396 but it is—
1397
1398 Charity Kirk: I know the design isn't, it's just the location in our particular county.
1399
1400 Scott Radway: I want to make it,without offending anybody, make it clear that this is a compact neighborhood
1401 and it's designed to have single-family detached housing opportunity,front house which is attached unit opportunity
1402 and multifamily, and we're looking at multifamily opportunity,that's three buildings.And I'll get to your point, and from
1403 Cy, you've heard some zoning aspect pieces of it, but it's not a new and a novel, it's not a new and a novel design.
1404 You can tell from the discussion tonight that it's been very, very difficult to figure out how to do something that has
1405 been proven to be successful in many places in North Carolina, as well as many places in the United States,within
1406 the zoning ordinances and land use plan,for Orange County and in many discussions back and forth,the issue of
1407 the Master Plan Development CD, is the zoning district which provides the type of requirements and standards
1408 under which you could do this type of a district. It happens that there's a piece of property which is identified as
1409 being supportive of a rural neighborhood activity center that has part of it within that and I think you are right. The
1410 question is whether you,as a County, and whether you, as a board, look at this and see it as saying this is a location
1411 which, and forgetting the site itself and its character for a second, this is a location where the addition of 280 more
1412 people towards your comprehensive plan identification piece of 1,000 people might support the existing retail uses
1413 that are already there, not bring new competition to it, and to do so in a way that is practically invisible from the road
1414 and from the neighbor's property, and so these are the pieces that we have been putting together in this to look and
1415 say is this an appropriate place. As the applicant,we believe it's an appropriate place to do that and what we're
1416 asking you is to think with us along the way and if you think this has the benefit of being the type of community that
1417 you'd want,figure out how to do it so it's as good as what we've drawn or even better.
1418
1419 Charity Kirk: I mean me, personally, I like the vision, but we've dealt with this before where the vision was
1420 good but the location wasn't the right location and, right now, I feel like we're slotting this in, in a very awkward way to
34
1421 try and make it happen,so to me,the question is how much do we want it and where do we want multifamily housing
1422 of this size.
1423
1424 Scott Radway: It's a great question. Maybe it's the central question and the issues about whether it's the right
1425 place or not, let's take a look at the population that it's proposed for. It's an older population. Forgetting what's
1426 inside, it's an older population which has,through NC 54 down to Carrboro and Chapel Hill, immediate access to
1427 probably the best health care services you can get in the State of North Carolina and practically anyplace else in the
1428 U.S.
1429
1430 Charity Kirk: No, I understand that but we're land use. I have to make land use decisions. That's what
1431 we're charged with. So thank you, I think those are my questions. I would probably have a follow-up question but 1
1432 don't have it now.
1433
1434 Scott Radway: I would hope that we can continue to talk.
1435
1436 Cy Stober: So Ms. Kirk, to your first question, I finally have an answer which is Page 203 of the UDO. 1
1437 believe that's correct, Page 203 or 3-69, residential conditional district,that's were you can find that. Non-residential
1438 district is on Page 205.And the only thing I would add from a staff perspective and regarding our analysis of this
1439 project and the process that's brought it to you this evening, should the comprehensive plan Appendix F amendment
1440 be approved, this same process would apply to any new applications for MPD-CD that would be received by the
1441 County, so there would be a planning board review and a public hearing to determine if it is appropriate for that
1442 location and if it is appropriate and in the public interest of the county to allow a new MPD-CD district in Orange
1443 County, so that would not change.
1444
1445 Charity Kirk: Why don't we just modify agricultural residential, rather than the rural activity note?
1446
1447 Cy Stober: I'm happy to have that conversation. I don't want to take away from the questions but we
1448 would also have to amend the definition of agricultural residential, I believe, in order to accommodate that.
1449
1450 Chris Johnston: My question is in regards to who is eligible to partake in these units. So, I'm 35 and I think this
1451 is a really great idea and I'd love to move in. I love solar and I think the way we separate our refuse waste is exciting.
1452
1453 Edwin Cox: Glad you're convinced. We have deliberately decided to have no age restriction.
1454
1455 Chris Johnston: Okay. So the reason I bring that up is this did come up in some of the email-related things and
1456 what I wanted to bring out with that was if this is in related to,for instance, the master aging plan and that sort of
1457 thing, if there are no age restrictions, I could move in there and I wouldn't necessarily be fulfilling those goals for
1458 mobility or participating in engagement or health and well, I mean, I really didn't see so much as I'd be enjoying those
1459 different benefits, but it wouldn't necessarily be the aging in place that maybe is necessary for this to fit within that
1460 mold. Does that make sense?
1461
1462 Edwin Cox: I don't think this would be particularly attractive to you unless you like to live among—
1463
1464 Chris Johnston: — I mean I would push back in that and say that my preferences are my own but I guess what
1465 I'm saying is if we're making a determination in regards toif this fits within,the goals of the comprehensive plan, does
1466 that fit the mold if this is open and again, I love the idea of sustainability and conservation and that sort of thing but in
1467 regards to the master aging plan and the components within that,without that requirement,a unit goes up for sale, 1
1468 purchase it because I love the idea and I'm in there, I don't necessarily know if that fits the aging in place idea.
1469
1470 Edwin Cox: So as a cooperative,we have a process whereby people apply to become members of the
1471 cooperative first. And only then will they be eligible for living there. And we have a process by which people
35
1472 understand our goals, among them, aging in place and to have provisions specifically for seniors and part of the buy-
1473 in, or whatever you want to call it, is in relation to supporting those services. They're going to be small units which
1474 are most suitable for people who are downsizing and would not be supportive of families or not attractive to families,
1475 because it wouldn't have enough bedrooms. So I think for all these reasons, our goal of being a place for aging
1476 adults is going to be met organically.
1477
1478 Chris Johnston: Okay. The cooperative I think is the only thing that would keep me from respectfully
1479 disagreeing, so, and I apologize to keep harping on this in regards to master aging plan, but could you help me
1480 through the cooperative decision making process for determining whether someone is eligible to live in this
1481 neighborhood. Because it sounds like in order to live in this neighborhood,you have to be a member of the
1482 Cooperative. I would like to know what the requirements to being in the Cooperative are in regard to that seems to
1483 be the barrier of entry to this particular land.
1484
1485 Edwin Cox: So we do not discriminate on the basis of race, creed, religion, or any other factors that relate
1486 to fair housing. It has to do more with the person who's applying educating themselves about what our goals are for
1487 the community and agreeing to those goals, and once they have completed that process of going through it,we have
1488 a membership committee. Then their identity is opened up to the entire Cooperative for anyone to come forward if
1489 they know of any particular objections they might have.And that's generally pretty straightforward and then they're
1490 allowed in. So, Peggy. This is Peggy.
1491
1492 Chris Johnston: Hi Peggy.
1493
1494 Peggy Craft: Hi.
1495
1496 Chris Johnston: Hi, Peggy. And I apologize. I don't mean to make a stink about this, but part of our
1497 determination is in regards to, how does this fit, and how does this fulfill the goals of comprehensive plan and the
1498 master aging plan component seems to be a large part of it, and I just want to make sure I fully understand.
1499
1500 Peggy Craft: I get that.
1501
1502 1 am secretary of H4D, I'm also head of the membership committee and had the difficult task of doing exactly what
1503 you're asking. Being a Cooperative requires us to have this acceptance approval process, so what do we want that
1504 to look like. I'm a contra dancer, I said, if they can't dance,you know, I'm not sure. Joking. Joking. Absolutely
1505 joking. We couldn't do that. We don't want to do that. What we want is for it to be a community. A community of
1506 people who share in our belief in the culture of active participation physically and governmentally. We want it to be
1507 run in a cooperative manner. We want people who appreciate and take part in traditional music and art and dance
1508 and nature. So when I talked to people,we've going through this process with several people and it's sort of like you
1509 got to understand who we are trying to be, and if you don't like banjo music,you're not going to be happy here,you
1510 know. It's just we are traditional music and dance people. And that's what the community is intended to be. We
1511 don't care if you're 35. I'd be quite happy to have you.
1512
1513 Chris Johnston: I do apologize, and I just want to keep unpeeling this onion a little bit because I don't have a
1514 whole lot of experience with Cooperatives, but in regards to how you determine who is appropriate to be within the
1515 Cooperative.And I'm going to be that guy, and I do apologize. How many members have you turned away.
1516
1517 Peggy Craft: None.
1518
1519 Chris Johnston: Applicants,excuse me, applicants.
1520
1521 Peggy Craft: None.
1522
36
1523 Chris Johnston: You've had none.
1524
1525 Peggy Craft: We've turned away no applicants.
1526
1527 Chris Johnston: So an applicant has gone through the process, expressed an interest, and you have not turned
1528 anyone away.
1529
1530 Peggy Craft: Correct.
1531
1532 Chris Johnston: Okay. All right. I just want to make sure. And then, again, I don't know how to ask this again
1533 without being inappropriate,and I do apologize. In regards to your mention of race and religion, the diversity of your
1534 group.
1535
1536 Dolores Bailey: Ask about the demographics.
1537
1538 Chris Johnston: Yes, I do have to be uncomfortable and ask about the demographics of your group. Is it
1539 something where if we allow this, is it something that is going to be open to everybody or is it going to be
1540 demographically stilted?
1541
1542 Peggy Craft: We'd love for it to be open.
1543
1544 Chris Johnston: Open. Okay.
1545
1546 Peggy Craft: And we're doing what we can. So, yes. We understand it's a problem.
1547
1548 Chris Johnston: And I just want to make sure that I'm clear that I'm not accusing anyone or saying anything
1549 along those lines, but I would not be doing my job if I didn't bring it up.
1550
1551 Peggy Craft: No, it's a reasonable question.
1552
1553 Chris Johnston: Okay. Thank you.
1554
1555 Peggy Craft: For the aging part, I will say, I understand the aging part as well. I'd love to have more
1556 younger people there. We didn't want to make it a 55 plus because we don't want to discriminate. Why can't you
1557 come in if you're 40. That'd be great. But I think it is true that the people who are interested in living in that kind of
1558 environment, and living communally are more likely to be the older people.
1559
1560 Chris Johnston: Wonderful. Thank you for your clarification. I appreciate it, Peggy. Thank you.
1561
1562 Peggy Craft: Thank you.
1563
1564 Whitney Watson: So I have a couple of questions. Some of them are perhaps not the purview of this board, but
1565 they're interesting to me, and one of them is the governance style. You referenced that in a couple of statements, so
1566 how are you going to govern this intentional community. Like as in is it a democracy,or a sociocracy,or.
1567
1568 Edwin Cox: We have a board of directors that are elected democratically, and that is an annual process.
1569 We have bylaws that specify all these conditions,and our goal is to have unanimity whenever possible, and we work
1570 very hard, so it's moving in the direction of sociocracy without adapting a whole cloth. We are a group of people who
1571 believe in working very hard to achieve unanimity whenever possible,and if we find even a single person is opposed
1572 to a particular action that we are proposing,we continue to work until we have satisfied everybody to the greatest
1573 extent, so that is our ethic,and we've worked very hard. Let me say about where the idea of the Cooperative came
37
1574 from. There are senior housing cooperatives that are really becoming very popular in the upper Midwest and
1575 Minnesota and Wisconsin. There are about 150. It's become an industry, and these are typical high-rise buildings
1576 with 60 to 100 residents, but after a developer creates the building, it's sold to the people who have moved in there,
1577 and they govern it as a cooperative,and it's a democratic structure. It's an operated cost structure, so there's no
1578 pecuniary benefit to the cooperative from their actions, and it seems to work very well up in those states, and that
1579 was our inspiration for trying to do that model here.
1580
1581 Whitney Watson: So who would actually own the dwelling unit? Would the individual or family and therefore
1582 they have the right to sell it to whoever they please? Or does the Co-op own the building?
1583
1584 Edwin Cox: In a full Cooperative model, the Cooperative owns all the buildings, all the units. The person
1585 buying the share in the Cooperative has the right to live there as long as they want and play by the rules and, you
1586 know, are current on their fees.And when they go to sell, though,they are able to sell it to anyone with the provision
1587 that that person first has to become a member of the Cooperative.
1588
1589 Whitney Watson: Okay, so this will be a full Cooperative?
1590
1591 Edwin Cox: We haven't determined that. It's possible that some of the units will be fee simple, and others
1592 might be under Cooperative model, but that's still to be determined.
1593
1594 Whitney Watson: Okay. Other questions I have. Looking at the other businesses in this neighborhood activity
1595 node,they provide services and resources for the broader community. How will Fiddlehead add to the mix and
1596 continue to enhance the existing activity node?And I really note it is kind of a cheap shot, but you talked about
1597 zipping past the entrance to the community in 3 seconds, so clearly,you're not really encouraging the broader
1598 community to come in.
1599
1600 Edwin Cox: I want to make it clear that this is not a commercial activity in the sense of offering any kind of
1601 services to outside people such as having a restaurant where they could come in and eat. There won't be anything
1602 of that type, so no commercial activity that would be part of an activity node.
1603
1604 Whitney Watson: But your narrative also mentions events and having parking for events though. There is an
1605 assumption there that people will be coming to this development from outside the community, and you are reaching
1606 out to a broader community, so to say,well,we're not really providing that for other people is perhaps disingenuous.
1607
1608 Edwin Cox: They would be coming as friends.
1609
1610 Whitney Watson: So there'd be no publicity that anybody would see anywhere else. No social media
1611 publications, no...
1612
1613 Edwin Cox: But it's possible it could be on social media but not advertisements as such. No, it would not
1614 be an event like that.There could be things like house concerts. A lot of people in our group host house concerts.
1615 And they charge a fee to pay the musicians and so something of that type is a possibility, but to have a public dance
1616 where there's an admission charge or something like that, I think that would not be the case.
1617
1618 Whitney Watson: Okay, so back to my question. So what will Fiddlehead do to enhance this activity node given
1619 the other businesses and residences that are in that area already?
1620
1621 Edwin Cox: I don't know that we have really made any determination on that. I can see some possibilities.
1622 We're going to have an energy resiliency strategy where we provide for our residents in terms of power continuity
1623 when the utility power goes out, and I think we can serve as a resource for education in the surrounding community
38
1624 to share the knowledge that our engineers have provided to help others keep their power on. That's just an example
1625 that came to mind.
1626
1627 Whitney Watson: Okay. What for me was missing in the narrative are ways in which public transportation or
1628 other kinds of transportation will be addressed or provided for the residents. I get that it's only a few miles down 54
1629 to Chapel Hill and Carrboro, but if somebody's got a medical appointment it can be tricky, and they're still shopping,
1630 so I guess I'm sort of questioning perhaps the assumptions of the traffic analysis in saying,oh no,there won't be any
1631 increase in traffic or virtually none.
1632
1633 Scott Radway As I heard the question before about what Fiddlehead might add to or support within the rural node
1634 is there is existing gas station and mini mart and the nursery, Piedmont, and other things that are in there, and I know
1635 for a fact that already we do that as we individually and as other members. So I think what you're doing is putting
1636 purchasing power in for some of the neighborhood's things that frankly you don't find anyplace else in the county
1637 within a half a mile of where you live. So if that was the question about what might be the impact on those
1638 businesses I would think it would be positive. The transportation piece,we had conversations with NCDOT and we
1639 had conversations with the County and with the transportation department and other things like that. We are very
1640 interested in being able to have bus service out this far in the county. What we don't have yet is a route structure and
1641 a number of other things that don't usually happen unless there's actually people there to do something for, and so
1642 one of the reasons that we are excited about that, there's an opportunity out here that with 285 or 300 people over
1643 the time of the project,that will provide enough mass at one location, and specifically we've talked about having a
1644 bus entrance or a bus stop that would be in location right at the entrance point which then is accessible to other
1645 people. We've talked about how to do a park and ride when there would be a demand and an opportunity within the
1646 bus system to get there, how to do a supportive use like a park and ride. There's a minimal impact around there.
1647 The other part of it is we have designed a location within the center of the development as specifically designed
1648 around the dimensions and requirements of what the County now has as the busses that are used for a call in and
1649 pickup dial-a-ride and things like that,so this is just one of the many things that you got to ask the questions to us
1650 because the information is, it's in there, but it's buried pretty far. Not because we want it to be buried but because
1651 there is so many different things.
1652
1653 Whitney Watson: So one of the things that showed up often in the narrative was this comment about affordable
1654 housing, and we've heard a project budget, but what do you anticipate an individual dwelling unit might go for?
1655
1656 Scott Radway: Well I guess the best answer for that is 2 years ago, if I had guessed the answer it would be
1657 wrong. But what we're looking for in the process is a dwelling unit's about 1,200 to 1,500 square feet, two bedrooms,
1658 small footprint, single floor as possible and other things like that and so all of those are pieces that are to reduce the
1659 cost of development in what we now see from national builders which are two stories, and they want four bedrooms,
1660 so they've got to have so many feet on the ground floor to support four bedrooms and that kind of stuff, so we're
1661 looking at a housing product that can be downsized into and it can be done with not all of the extra corners and
1662 windows and all of the other things that go into houses that are two and three stories and are$600,000. That's not
1663 an answer. The answer is we don't know for sure what it will be because we're looking at being out there about 2
1664 years if the project gets approved, getting the wells approved, getting the wastewater treatment approved, going
1665 through all of the preliminary site work which includes identifying—we have to do the tree survey and doing a lot of
1666 other things. I'm not trying to avoid the question or avoid the answer. It's just not quite possible to do that, but we do
1667 know that two-bedroom houses on one floor are going to be more affordable than four bedroom houses and two
1668 bathrooms on two floors, and so we're aiming at that piece. We've talked with the County about affordable housing
1669 and how that mechanism can come into place or not,and we have not figured out if it can be done through the
1670 budget process and through the funding of affordable housing. So, it's two pieces. One is how to reduce the cost for
1671 the people who are going to move there,which is one aspect, and the other is in a broader sense of what's affordable
1672 housing, and we don't have an answer for that yet.
1673
39
1674 Whitney Watson: So the only other question I have has to do with management of all the activities happening
1675 and you mentioned the board of directors and committee but also where is the staffing going to come from for some
1676 of these activities and facilities and predictably the healthcare?
1677
1678 Scott Radway: I think overall what you're looking at, in a bigger sense, is for some items, it's the same kinds
1679 of things that a homeowners'association takes care of: storm drainage ponds in the streets and other things like
1680 that. And so really,you're importing that same set of procedures. You're just importing a board and a management
1681 system that's not called a condominium association. It's called a coop association. For the other services, I guess as
1682 we've talked about things, solid waste collection,for example,which is something to pick up and store and work with
1683 the County, and we have a plan for that. Somebody will be required onsite and so that's a service that you either fill
1684 with somebody that's in your community already who would like to do that, sometimes that's a volunteer. Often it's
1685 not volunteer, it's paid or have others come who do that as a business. So, I guess I would say there's movement
1686 back and forth in the different kinds of services.
1687
1688 Whitney Watson: To be more specific and transparent, so my parents went into a continuing care facility in 2017
1689 and they very quickly came to depend on staff to help with their medications even though they were in independent
1690 living. And when they went to assisted living, they had the same kind of staffing issues. So,where is that staffing
1691 going to come from because it can't just be volunteers?
1692
1693 Scott Radway: Let me have Mareah answer that specific aspect.
1694
1695 Mareah Steketee: That's a great question. Family care home as a licensed facility has to be operated by
1696 licensed individuals and so that is part of the cost of living in the community and we'll cover it in whatever way we
1697 can. A lot of it will be single payer. If I need care, I need to be prepared to pay for that. Medicare may cover some
1698 things. Medicare is now covering a bit more than it was before, but it doesn't typically cover day-to-day, assisted
1699 living sort of care but that home will be licensed by the state,will be operated by an official operator. So, does that
1700 answer your questions?
1701
1702 Whitney Watson: Yeah.
1703
1704 Lamar Proctor: All right,thank you. Elizabeth?
1705
1706 Elizabeth Kalies: I just want to follow up on some of Chris'questions and wonder if you could speak to any sort
1707 of diversity, equity, inclusion plans that you have in place? I think they alluded to we're working on it, but are there
1708 any really firm commitments you're making beyond we're looking into affordable housing,we're looking into,you
1709 know, how are you hoping to really achieve those goals?
1710
1711 Mareah Steketee: We're hoping to achieve those goals by continuing to not only educate ourselves but reaching
1712 out to the broader creative community. We've been in consultation with Carol Woods in terms of their outreach
1713 program. The basic trend for many families, black and brown families, is that they take care of their elders in their
1714 own homes. That's a potential changing pattern. We don't have a formal plan right now. Our bylaws are inclusive of
1715 all individuals and we'll do whatever outreach we can. It's an open community. Our dance community, our music
1716 community, is inclusive of all people so we don't have a formal plan. It's something that I've been talking about for a
1717 long time.
1718
1719 Dolores Bailey: I know we only have a few minutes.
1720
1721 Cy Stober: So, yes,two points. Just one acknowledging the time and that two board members haven't
1722 had an opportunity to ask questions.And the other just a reminder to all board members that ultimately the
1723 applications are with regard to land use and development or preservation and your decisions ultimately must be
1724 based upon the land use and the applications before you.
40
1725
1726 Lamar Proctor: Thank you for that reminder and I would like to keep things moving, but I don't want to limit
1727 board members'questions too much. With that caveat from Mr. Stober that we need to focus on the land uses, do
1728 you think if we extended the meeting by 15 minutes we could get everyone's questions in?
1729
1730 Charity Kirk: I just want to clarify that we are supposed to evaluate whether or not this development would
1731 fit with the character of the zoning request.
1732
1733 Cy Stober: That is absolutely correct.
1734
1735 Charity Kirk: Okay. Just checking.
1736
1737 Cy Stober: Yeah,the character of the community, the character of the activity node, and also the
1738 principles, goals, and objectives of the comprehensive plan, many of which speak to equity. You are correct.
1739
1740 Lamar Proctor: So, my question is do you think if we extend the meeting by 15 minutes we could get the
1741 remaining board members'questions so we could finish that portion of the program? If not,that's fine. We'll just pick
1742 up where we left off.
1743
1744 Beth Bronson: I just need 2 minutes. 15 minutes for questions will be just fine.
1745
1746 Dolores Bailey: Three?
1747
1748 Chris Johnston: I make a motion to extend by 3 plus 2 is 10 minutes.
1749
1750 Beth Bronson: Nope, 15 minutes.
1751
1752 Chris Johnston: Okay, 15 minutes to finish out the board query and so that we can start the meeting fresh with
1753 public comment.
1754
1755 Marilyn Carter: Second.
1756
1757 Lamar Proctor: All in favor? All opposed? Okay. We'll extend it 15 minutes for the purposes of finishing out
1758 board member questions so we can begin with public comment at the next meeting.
1759
1760 MOTION BY Chris Johnston to extend the meeting by 15 minutes. Seconded by Marilyn Carter
1761
1762 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
1763
1764 Dolores Bailey: So, as I was saying, I get what you all are trying to do. I am a board member of Carol Woods
1765 Retirement Center, been a board member for a while. So, I am confused with what this is trying to be. Are you trying
1766 to be a retirement center?Are you trying to be a cooperative?
1767
1768 Mareah Steketee: We are a cooperative.
1769
1770 Dolores Bailey: Okay. So, are you asking us to change the land use only so that you can create a separate
1771 community for this coop?
1772
1773 Mareah Steketee: It is a community that will be guided by principles of cooperative living that really wants to
1774 incorporate aging in place. We're not building walls to separate from other people. We are welcoming to those
1775 people. I mean,we often joke that it would only be appropriate to join this community if you can live with a banjo.
41
1776
1777 Dolores Bailey: That's not a problem for many of the people I serve. I provide affordable housing and in
1778 Orange County there's a 1,900-unit gap of people who are looking for housing.And seniors in particular, and black
1779 and brown seniors in particular.And Carol Woods has a 1,600 person wait list.And there's not much diversity on that
1780 list.
1781
1782 Mareah Steketee: Correct.
1783
1784 Dolores Bailey: So Carol Woods has not figured out how to provide diversity. I am saying this because if
1785 you're getting ready to build a community like this, you really must look at that. And let me just give a comment on
1786 something you said. The African-American community is no longer able to keep their families at home. They
1787 absolutely want and need places like this but often when they are created, like what this sounds like to my ears, is
1788 exclusive. It does not include everyone and so what I think I heard was that we need to change the zonings because
1789 you want to put in a facility for aging. You're going to put in a family center but you don't want to be seen.
1790
1791 Mareah Steketee: No,we think that others don't want to see us, ma'am.
1792
1793 Dolores Bailey: That is so not true. The need for housing in Orange County is so desperate for everybody.
1794
1795 Mareah Steketee: It is. Yes, it is.
1796
1797 Dolores Bailey: As Chris said, if he could live in this community, he would, too. It's a wonderful-sounding
1798 community. So, if you are not going to restrict it to 55, if this is not a retirement center which we need more of in
1799 Orange County,we do, there's no place for people to age which is why this sounded good to me because it sounded
1800 like you were creating another Carol Woods but that's not what you're doing. So, I am confused.
1801
1802 Mareah Steketee: Well,the confusion probably comes because the CCRCs that you are familiar with, Carol
1803 Woods, etc. are enormously expensive. Many of our community members could not afford to live there and so we're
1804 looking for an alternative that is between,that isn't age restricted. In fact,there's a person who's interested in the
1805 community who says I have a disabled daughter who needs her own home. Can she live in this community? We say
1806 absolutely yes. We're not restricting. We need to do a better job at reaching out, right? A lot of our interested
1807 parties right now don't want to commit because they don't want to do it before zoning. They're more risk averse. We
1808 have a lot of outreach and marketing to do yet. We're at the beginning of that. Even though we have 34 people who
1809 say I want to live there and 100 more who are interested and many more in the background,yes,we can do a better
1810 job of being inclusive. We have not said tonight that we're affordable housing because we have tried very hard to
1811 meet that bar and with a family-care home,two family-care homes,and the expense of a common house and health
1812 facilities, it's very difficult to keep the cost down. That has to be spread across all the people in the community and
1813 once we're established there may be an opportunity to provide some options for people with lower income, but we
1814 don't want to be exclusive in terms of background.
1815
1816 Dolores Bailey: When you mention the affordable side of it, normally we base that on people's income,and if
1817 we're talking about seniors I am convinced there's not going to be a whole lot of really high incomes that are out
1818 there. You talk about exclusivity,you mention the family center and needing caretakers. Will the caretakers be able
1819 to live here?
1820
1821 Mareah Steketee: We've talked about it.
1822
1823 Scott Radway: Dolores,we've known each other and gone through a lot of affordable housing wars on the
1824 same side.And I wanted to make one comment about what people are talking about and some of the questions are
1825 about is anybody could live there that's under 55 and some other things like that. Some of you may have experience
1826 with age 55 or age 62 age-restricted residential developments, and some with CCRCs, and some with assisted living
42
1827 and some other things, and one of the specific reasons not to do those is because all of those were established
1828 exactly to create discrimination against younger folks and go on down the line. And some of the operating
1829 procedures of what you can do and what you can't do to become a member of the community are flatly outright
1830 racist. And so, part of the effort to trying not to have to be pushed into one of those models is to set up a different
1831 kind of model,which has worked successfully elsewhere, see if can be done here. I guess the biggest thing about it
1832 is, John mentioned this to me and so I'll mention it, one of the things that was part of the design process is the three
1833 buildings of 20 dwelling units. And one of the reasons that it's very useful is because that's an easy place to be able
1834 to provide services to people in their dwelling units. It's also one of the places on the property that is going to cost
1835 the least to build the dwelling units. So,we're looking at this on that model of trying to make it possible to relocate to
1836 this community from a bigger house. I'm not saying the work is done. You know that, but some of the component
1837 pieces are just really difficult to put together, and what we haven't really said tonight, but Maria said it a little bit,
1838 which is a lot of the things you can't get somebody excited about until you've actually got what they think is a project
1839 that's real. And so,one of the steps in this process has been get to the planning board, get further along in the
1840 process on those types of things. We've been asked a question about well,what do you know about this financing
1841 and that financing. Well, I'm not sure I know anybody doing their own house or doing something else that can go into
1842 the bank and say give me a mortgage for$800,000, I'm thinking about building a house. So,we are in the process of
1843 doing these steps and we hope we're doing them right, and we hope we gain some good input which we have.
1844
1845 Dolores Bailey: Scott,you said it was going to be a$65 to$75 million project over the full haul and you know
1846 how many square feet you're going to put into this thing. The way we normally calculate is figuring out how much
1847 we're talking about per square foot for building.
1848
1849 Scott Radway: It's a slightly different model for the costing of this than I would say an individual building or an
1850 individual structure.
1851
1852 Beth Bronson: Do a ballpark. You can do a ballpark.
1853
1854 Scott Radway: We can do a ballpark. We can bring it back to you. What the pieces in the ballpark look like
1855 are wastewater system. We don't have tap fees like you do if you've got public water. We don't have those kinds of
1856 things but we do have another cost. So,we can't give you specific numbers that are going to be realistic probably a
1857 month after we give them to you but they're going to be ballpark. Kind of these are the pieces that go into it. This is
1858 how the cost gets looked at. It's not necessarily something that you might ask, but in a lot of places wouldn't ask, MI
1859 Homes or Toll Brothers or something about it, they'd just say okay, you've been in business a long time. We think
1860 you're good. We've got to get to that step to prove it.
1861
1862 Dolores Bailey: My question, and I know you guys can't answer tonight, about affordability is who's going to be
1863 able to afford it.
1864
1865 Beth Bronson: Thank you very much and to that point, if you're going to have 150 residences and you project
1866 it's going to be$60 million, it's roughly$400,000.00. I'm, I'm just letting anybody know who's saying that this master
1867 plan that they're applying for is for 150 residences and in the application, I understand it's 300 bedrooms. Is that
1868 correct?
1869
1870 Scott Radway: Yes,we're asking for an upset number on dwelling units, 150 and an upset number on
1871 bedrooms as 300.
1872
1873 Beth Bronson: And what I kind of want to clarify because of the master plan development application is that
1874 when you are applying for that,you are required to provide, and this may be specifically with conditional zoning, but
1875 any master plan is conditional, right? So,you are required to provide this level of detail,this level of thought and
1876 output into what would be the plan. Any deviation from that plan would need to come back to the planning board,to
1877 my understanding, if you're going to deviate from the master plan as being approved on whatever conditions they're
43
1878 being approved. So, if we were to say that, like, how many parking spots you could have,we could put a condition
1879 on that to say,you know,or that your community center couldn't be more than 10,000. It's very arbitrary. I'm just
1880 pointing out that the master plan development is conditional on what is being submitted in the application.And that's
1881 more for, I think, public knowledge than it is for the applicant, per se. I did see four different lift stations for the septic
1882 plan and not to say that's not feasible, but as somebody who's going through that permitting process myself,
1883 understanding how much to do the STEP system might incur and how much land disturbance might be required to
1884 accommodate all of this. Because I think what's very critical is that while it's an activity node, there are no utilities
1885 available at 54, right? So, there is no fire hydrant. There is no septic. There's only volunteer fire departments. So,
1886 when we say first responders,that I think would be the concern that I would have in my line of questioning, and 1
1887 realize we're at 10:10 and to those that are asking about banjo music my friends and I have, and I'm a millennial,
1888 we've been talking about doing this for about a decade. So it's not that,you know, 55 and younger don't want to. It's
1889 that it's a non-attainable thing that a lot of people who are 35 to 45 think oh, I can find a plot of land in a community
1890 that I feel accepted in and then age in place until I'm 70 or 80 or 90. And that is very much, I think,what you guys
1891 have put there as this community, as this coop. I think is is a very ambitious goal and I think it is very much in line
1892 with Orange County,with this aging in place. I don't have to know the very specific goals to know that what's
1893 intended is absolutely aligned with that idea. Whether or not it is prudent of this planning board to recommend that or
1894 not is completely separate of how I personally feel about it.
1895
1896 Scott Radway: Can I have half a minute of the 1 minute that's left, maybe, to answer or make one comment?
1897
1898 Lamar Proctor: There will be an opportunity for debate and discussion amongst the board, so if we can get to the
1899 questions then we can finish. I'm not trying to cut you off.
1900
1901 Beth Bronson: No, I get it. Everybody else had their time. And maybe what we can do with this remaining
1902 time is make this motion to continue,and are we going to be creating a special session or are we going to be meeting
1903 in July? And I apologize if I was late and did not hear about this in the beginning, but we do need to decide whether
1904 or not we are meeting before our next scheduled planning board meeting.
1905
1906 Lamar Proctor: Well, if you're done with your questioning of the applicant,then I can move onto that.
1907
1908 Beth Bronson: Oh, no. I only have 2 minutes and we're supposed to stop so that's why I figured it was
1909 necessary.
1910
1911 Lamar Proctor: Okay. My intent was to just resume through the normal process at the July meeting on
1912 July 101h,just continue with this agenda.
1913
1914 Beth Bronson: Okay.
1915
1916 Lamar Proctor: And I will welcome suggestions from staff.
1917
1918 Cy Stober: Well, point of order is we have two applications that have a due process need to be completed
1919 in July so we're going to need to talk about agenda composition and how they are ordered. One is a by-right
1920 subdivision that you've already reviewed as a concept plan for the Stonewall subdivision and the other is a down
1921 zoning for the Common Ground project on Frazier Road.
1922
1923 Charity Kirk: Both of those you want in July?
1924
1925 Cy Stober: They have a right to be heard in due time, so they need to be scheduled at some point. So, I'll
1926 probably need to speak with Mr. Beeman and Mr. Proctor about it, and the staff attorney, James Bryan, about how
1927 we process these, so they are able to get their due process and get to a public hearing in due time.
1928
44
1929 Marilyn Carter: You would like them in July?
1930
1931 Cy Stober: They're tentatively on the schedule. The first available hearing date is not until September so
1932 conceivably it could be August.
1933
1934 Lamar Proctor: So, I welcome staff to help us.
1935
1936 Cy Stober: We'll need to discuss more offline. So, if you schedule this, the date certain is the next
1937 scheduled board meeting. That's fine but then we also have several text amendments. You're going to have a busy
1938 summer.
1939
1940 Charity Kirk: Would you suggest we schedule a special session?
1941
1942 Cy Stober: It would help the staff to a degree. I'll be on parental leave so those folks over there may want
1943 to kill me but,you could schedule a special session,or we just need to ensure that those other applications are heard
1944 prior to September.
1945
1946 Statler Gilfillen: Can we just take a moment to schedule a special session based on what you've said.
1947
1948 Cy Stober: And I can discuss with the chair and vice chair offline but if you would like to schedule this to
1949 the date certain being July 101h,that's fine and it'll just affect how we have this conversation about the other
1950 applications that we have in the queue.
1951
1952 Lamar Proctor: Well, I can also entertain a motion if the board wants to continue this on June 191h.
1953
1954 Chris Johnston: June 191h is Juneteenth.
1955
1956 Cy Stober: It's a holiday.
1957
1958 Lamar Proctor: Oh. That's right. June 26th
1959
1960 Statler Gilfillen: I'll make a motion that we do this and continue it on June 26th. I'm trying to get us out of here.
1961
1962 Chris Johnston: I second.
1963
1964 Lamar Proctor: All in favor of having a special session to continue this agenda on June 261h.
1965
1966 Beth Bronson: I'm not available so I vote no.
1967
1968 Steven Kaufmann: Well, I have a comment on that. Between now and 41h of July is like major vacation time. And
1969 1 would be in favor of staying with our schedule but then possibly having other meetings in July after that date
1970 because I think we're going to be missing a lot of people.
1971
1972 Chris Johnston: Having a special session for the two other items because we need to finish this one out.
1973
1974 Cy Stober: Yeah,we can figure that out.
1975
1976 Lamar Proctor: So, I had a motion for June 26th with a second so I'm going to—we had some discussion so
1977 I'm going to take another vote on whether to continue this on June 261h. All in favor, raise your hand. All opposed
1978 raise your hand. So,can we get a count on that?
1979
45
1980 Charity Kirk: Five.
1981
1982 Cy Stober: It's a split vote. It fails.
1983
1984 MOTION BY Statler Gilfillen to hold a special meeting on June 261". Seconded by Chris Johnston.
1985
1986 IN FAVOR: Statler Gilfillen, Charity Kirk, Chris Johnston,Whitney Watson, Liz Kalies
1987 OPPOSED: Marilyn Carter, Steve Kaufmann, Lamar Proctor, Dolores Bailey, Beth Bronson
1988 MOTION FAILED 5 TO 5
1989
1990 Lamar Proctor: Thank you.
1991
1992 Beth Bronson: I would just say, if Wednesday has to be the day, if there was an availability for everybody on
1993 the 13th or the 20t".
1994
1995 Charity Kirk: So, it fails so we're going to have it on July 10th?
1996
1997 Lamar Proctor: Yeah. It would be July 10th.
1998
1999 Cy Stober: Yes,the next scheduled regular meeting is Wednesday, July 10th due to the 4th of July
2000 holiday.
2001
2002 Lamar Proctor: So,just so the record is clear,we will continue this session on July 10th and we will finish with
2003 any follow-up questions briefly from board members and move as quickly as possible into public comment. Does
2004 anyone have any discussion about that plan? Okay. So, that will be the next date to continue this agenda. Thank
2005 you. Do I have a motion?
2006
2007 AGENDA ITEM 10: ADJOURNMENT
2008
2009 Chris Johnston: I make a motion to adjourn for the night.
2010
2011 Steve Kaufmann: Second.
2012
2013 Lamar Proctor: All in favor? Any opposed. All right. Thank you.
2014
2015 MOTION BY Chris Johnston to adjourn the meeting. Seconded by Steve Kaufmann
2016
2017 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
2018
2019 The meeting adjourned at 10:18 PM.
2020
2021
2022
2023
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