HomeMy WebLinkAbout6.7.23 Planning Board Minutes Approved August 2 , 2023
1 MEETING MINUTES
2 ORANGE COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
3 JUNE 7 , 2023
4 REGULAR MEETING
5
6 MEMBERS PRESENT : Adam Beeman ( Chair) , Cedar Grove Township Representative ; Lamar Proctor (Vice- Chair) , Cheeks
7 Township Representative ; Melissa Poole , Little River Township Representative ; Delores Bailey , At- Large
8 Representative ; Charity Kirk , At- Large Representative ; Statler Gilfillen , Eno Township Representative ; Whitney Watson ,
9 At- Large Representative ; Steve Kaufmann , Bingham Township Representative ; Chris Johnston , Hillsborough Township
10 Representative ; Beth Bronson , At- Large Representative
11
12 MEMBERS ABSENT : Elizabeth Kalies , Chapel Hill Township Representative
13
14 STAFF PRESENT : Cy Stober, Planning & Inspections Director; Taylor Perschau , Current Planning and Zoning Supervisor;
15 Perdita Holtz , Deputy Director — Long Range Planning & Administrative Division ; Tom Altien , Senior Planner — Long
16 Range Planning & Administrative Division ; Ashley Moncado , Planner III ; Sharon Swann , Administrative Support 1
17
18 OTHERS PRESENT : None
19
20
21 AGENDA ITEM 1 : CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL
22 Chair Adam Beeman called the meeting to order.
23
24
25 AGENDA ITEM 2 . INFORMATION ITEMS
26 a . Planning Board Calendar for June and July
27
28
29 AGENDA ITEM 3 : APPROVAL OF MINUTES
30
31 MOTION BY Melissa Poole to approve the April 19 , 2023 Special Meeting Minutes , May 3 , 2023 Regular Meeting Minutes ,
32 and May 3 , 2023 Training Session Notes . Seconded by Chris Johnston .
33 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
34
35
36 AGENDA ITEM 4 : CONSIDERATION OF ADDITIONS TO AGENDA
37 There were no additions to the agenda .
38
39
40 AGENDA ITEM 5 : PUBLIC CHARGE
41
42 INTRODUCTION TO THE PUBLIC CHARGE
43 The Board of County Commissioners , under the authority of North Carolina General Statute ,
44 appoints the Orange County Planning Board ( OCPB ) to uphold the written land development law of
45 the County . The general purpose of OCPB is to guide and accomplish coordinated and harmonious
46 development . OCPB shall do so in a manner, which considers the present and future needs of its
47 citizens and businesses through efficient and responsive process that contributes to and promotes
48 the health , safety , and welfare of the overall County . The OCPB will make every effort to uphold a
49 vision of responsive governance and quality public services during our deliberations , decisions , and
50 recommendations .
51
52 PUBLIC CHARGE
53 The Planning Board pledges to the citizens of Orange County its respect . The Board asks its
54 citizens to conduct themselves in a respectful , courteous manner, both with the Board and with
55 fellow citizens . At any time , should any member of the Board or any citizen fail to observe this public
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56 charge , the Chair will ask the offending member to leave the meeting until that individual regains
57 personal control . Should decorum fail to be restored , the Chair will recess the meeting until such
58 time that a genuine commitment to this public charge is observed .
59
60
61 AGENDA ITEM 6 : CHAIR COMMENTS
62 There were no comments .
63
64
65 AGENDA ITEM 7 : COMPREHENSIVE LAND USE PLAN UPDATE — To receive information on the consultant contract that
66 was approved by the BOCC on May 16 , 2023 .
67
68 PRESENTER : Tom Altieri , Senior Planner — Long Range Planning & Administrative Division
69
70 Tom Altieri gave a review of the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and presented the Board with information on the
71 consultant contract that was approved by the BOCC on May 16, 2023.
72
73 Statler Gilfillen : How many different companies submitted proposals on this , and can you tell us who they were?
74
75 Tom Altieri : Yes , I can . There were two : Clarion and Associates and Inspire Placemaking ,
76
77 Statler Gilfillen : The second one was who ?
78
79 Tom Altieri : Inspire Placemaking . They do have an office in Raleigh and are headquartered out of Florida .
80
81 Statler Gilfillen : So you only had two submittals ?
82
83 Tom Altieri : That' s correct .
84
85 Charity Kirk : I know we ' ve talked about how we can ' t touch sustainability as a planning board and there are water issues
86 that we had to dance around , and we are only land - use . Is this a time where we push the planning board to have more
87 say in things like telling applicants that they need to put more water-saving measures in their buildings ? Is this the time
88 where we push for that . . . efficiency standards and such ?
89
90 Tom Altieri : Water conservation , protection of our water supply, both surface water and groundwater, those are items
91 that would be addressed in our Comprehensive Land Use Plan goals and objectives that pertain to those areas and any
92 associated recommendations .
93
94 Charity Kirk : So that would allow the future planning board more leeway in what we judge projects on ?
95 Tom Altieri : It could potentially lead to that . If you remember back to one of those early slides , the Comprehensive Land
96 Use Plan is a plan , it' s a guide , it expresses a vision . It is to be implemented through subsequent actions largely through
97 the Unified Development Ordinance . So , when we are looking at some of those issues like potentially related to
98 groundwater or groundwater recharge , wells , you get into things like lot size and density and those are things that are
99 addressed through standards in the UDO .
100
101 Charity Kirk : So like with the Lawrence Road project, we could have said "We will approve this if you implement water
102 saving measures ?" That would be something that we could then pull from the comprehensive plan and then put in as an
103 amendment? Is this the area where we can start doing that or is there some other area where we can start doing that?
104
105 Beth Bronson : I just want to make sure that there is a distinction between the development ordinance and the standards
106 with which we require them to apply for the application to build . . . those type of water saving measures would be place in
107 the development ordinance in section 6 but then the comprehensive plan would be used to bolster whether we approve
108 or deny a consideration based on that it is or is not in line with the comprehensive land use . . . I could be wrong , I just
109 wanted to see if that was . . . .
110
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111 Cy Stober: So there ' s two different things to consider here that I think are relevant . First of all there is a state law in North
112 Carolina that prohibits us from having regulations that exceed those of the state . So that' s relevant to the water
113 conservation standards . So , we can ' t have a UDO standard that exceeds that of the state when it comes to water
114 conservation or water quality for that matter. The county , right now , is 5M0 % of the way through its climate adaptation
115 plan , that I anticipate will have very specific goals or objectives related to conservation and sustainability . That will be
116 one of the foundational documents that is referenced by Clarion and Associates that there can be crosstalk with and
117 whether it is a cross reference to the climate adaptability plan or it is a stand - alone , but complementary goal related to
118 land use and development , I think that can be in the comprehensive plan . That could be a land use or sustainability goal
119 depending on what direction this planning effort goes . That could be not supported by the Lawrence Road project in your
120 example , and you could say it' s not supportive of this goal and that is our grounds for voting against this .
121
122 Charity Kirk : I know we ' ve been adding amendments or little add -ons for approval of stuff . . .
123
124 Cy Stober: So that' s part of the conditional zoning process which is completely separate from the comprehensive plan .
125 That is baked into conditional zoning and your powers as the advisory board to the commissioners in saying "We would
126 approve this with these specified changes . " For example ; Water conservation measures , solar array . . . .
127
128 Charity Kirk : But you were saying , for Lawrence Road that we couldn ' t do that . . . .
129
130 Cy Stober : You can ' t, it has to be tied to the land use , yes .
131
132 Charity Kirk : This is not the comprehensive plan where we can pull it to say we don 't want something ? It would be a
133 change to the UDO?
134
135 Cy Stober: If I recollect, that was specific on fixtures in the schools and on the rec fields , so that would have been
136 exceeding the land use of parameters of the conditions that should be reasonably tied to the land use recommendation .
137 There is probably some wiggle room over the next two years that we can explore their broad goals that you could
138 explore .
139
140 Charity Kirk : Which is the UDO ?
141
142 Cy Stober : No , UDO is standards . UDO is law . Comprehensive plan is guidance .
143
144 Charity Kirk : What I ' m talking about, is it changes to the comp plan or changes to the LIDO that need to happen in order
145 for us to . . .
146
147 Cy Stober: I would say it is probably more the comprehensive plan to establish discrete goals and objectives related to ,
148 in this case , sustainability . That may crop up in this other plan and we have good cross talk about how this land use
149 document talks with our climate adaptation strategy and how are they integrated and what is and is not supported by
150 those two documents .
151
152 Charity Kirk : I just wanted to clarify , the public engagement windows are two- month periods in which public engagement
153 is ramped up and goes through the different lists of things , but it doesn 't talk about specifically how they are going to
154 reach the public . It talks about the website , and the coordination but what avenues are going to be used in order to
155 engage the public? Is it going to be mailing or do you have any kind of information on that or is it still too early in the
156 process to know?
157
158 Tom Altieri : It' s a little bit early but certainly , all of the above . We are going to have that project branded website , we will
159 be working with our information officer with the county to push out notices via social media . That equity database will be
160 used to do some direct mailing potentially email but to reach them to make sure that they are involved in those outreach
161 activities . There will also be some monitoring by Clarion in terms of participation to make sure that some of these
162 targeted groups are being reached and , if not , take the opportunity to have some targeted meetings , specific
163 geographies to reach those people .
164
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165 Chris Johnston : In regard to Statler' s question about there only being two applicants , what was that due to ? Because two
166 seems like a small end value to pull and then be able to say that this is the best vendor to go with for something that
167 feels like a broad reaching tool .
168
169 Tom Altieri : I have no response to that, no insight there other than we followed the County Is procurement process . It was
170 advertised , not just in North Carolina but nationally . I was told that we only need one qualified applicant . Luckily , we had
171 two and we interviewed what we determined to be the best proposal based on our scoring matrix . Clarion actually
172 worked with us in 2006/2008 on the existing comprehensive plan , so they do have some familiarity with Orange County .
173 Leigh Anne King , their project manager was actually a project planner who worked for Roger Waldon of Clarion who
174 was the lead project manager at that time , former Chapel Hill Planning Director. We are very pleased with the team of
175 consultants that have been put together by Clarion .
176
177 Statler Gilfillen : Following up , when you put the proposal out, then you selected , then you negotiated the price after the
178 fact, right? Was the price determined at the time of seeking out the consultants or was the price determined after you
179 had determined which consultant to use?
180
181 Tom Altieri : Before . The consultant' s estimate was part of our scoring matrix , so cost was a factor that was involved so
182 we did have that information .
183
184 Beth Bronson : What was the project manager' s name again ?
185
186 Tom Altieri : Leigh Anne King .
187
188 Beth Bronson : The project kick off, there would be stakeholder interviews the 17th .21 st? Was there a timeline for getting
189 those scheduled or should we just anticipate to hear?
190
191 Tom Altieri : Anticipate to hear. We ' ve assembled all the contact information , they do have to work around public meeting
192 laws so there may be some one-on -one interview opportunities , there may be some cases where there are two or three
193 at a time . That information will be coming directly from the consultant .
194
195 Beth Bronson : Do you anticipate them reaching out the week of the 17th ? I am just thinking about summer schedules and
196 wanting to make sure that if they have to change their timeline for that, I don ' t want anyone to miss the opportunity to
197 schedule .
198
199 Tom Altieri : They have not given me a specific date , but I would think that they would start reaching out within the next
200 week . They understand that we need to have the dates on everyone ' s calendar.
201
202 Beth Bronson : This is in reference to the 5 -year plan or is it a 20-year plan ? This comprehensive land use update?
203
204 Tom Altieri : The planning horizon for the update is generally a 10-20 -year horizon . You will see projections that go out
205 as far as 20 years or so but as a general benchmark , updating your comprehensive plan every 10 years and the data in
206 it is a common benchmark .
207
208 Beth Bronson : I thought I saw somewhere that it had to do with the 5 -year plan .
209
210 Tom Altieri : I spoke a little about the county-wide strategic plan just because there are a number of different plans taking
211 place at the county . I wanted to make a clear distinction that the county-wide strategic plan is different, it is a short- range
212 plan , covers all the programs and services in the county and portions of that will help inform our work , some of the
213 outreach , the survey results , will dovetail into our work on the comprehensive land use plan with that longer, long - range
214 vision and longer planning horizon .
215
216 Beth Bronson : Clarion is specifically for the comprehensive land use . Is there a different consultant for the strategic
217 plan ?
218
219 Tom Altieri : There is , BerryDunn and Associates .
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220
221 Beth Bronson : I had asked about the May 311t deadline for the " hold your own meeting styles" . . .
222
223 Tom Altieri : You are referring back to the strategic plan . . .
224
225 Beth Bronson : Is that the strategic plan ? Thank you , it flowed together so I wasn ' t sure which one was which .
226
227 Tom Altieri : The commencement date for our consultant is June 30th so one of the first things they will do is a project
228 website for the comprehensive land use plan , but it doesn ' t exist now .
229
230 Statler Gilfillen : There are 20 pages of material that you submitted about this to us . Can I ask you if Clarion wrote that or
231 did someone in your department write that?
232
233 Tom Altieri : Clarion wrote that .
234
235 Statler Gilfillen : I read through this , I am an architect , licensed and have done a great deal of planning , 11 years teaching
236 architecture , business marketing at the university level . I ' ve read a lot of reports , I ' ve worked for NASA at Cape
237 Canaveral , the language that they used is about as rambling , obtuse and general that you could drive a truck through it .
238 I ' m concerned about the presentation . I don ' t know how many people here actually tried to read through this , but they
239 use words like " relevant" which doesn ' t mean a thing , anything can be relevant . I am concerned about the language
240 having meaning . We complain about lawyers and how they write things in detail but sometimes there is a reason .
241
242 Tom Altieri : What you have here , these 24 pages you referred to , is a portion of the contract . There ' s 20 other pages of
243 legal jargon . Attachment A is the consultant' s deliverables and the schedule . The two go together . There is a link in your
244 packet if you are interested in seeing the whole ball of wax , it' s there on our website for the Commissioner' s meeting .
245
246 Statler Gilfillen : As a member of the Planning Board , in my own experience , can I suggest that within your department,
247 please try to keep it more focused than what I was reading here because the public is going to get totally lost . If we really
248 want to get the public involved , we want developers to understand what' s going on . The language of how we present this
249 is important and I would hope as a message that somebody is watching for that based on what I ' ve read here .
250
251 Beth Bronson : I have a comment on the stakeholders and who they plan to engage . They said that they would spend
252 what period of time looking for the stakeholders , all the different boards and municipalities . . . ?
253
254 Tom Altieri : The stakeholders they will be reaching out to for the stakeholder interviews in July have already been
255 identified and they have that contact list . I can give you a quick rundown if you like of the various groups .
256 There are groups of 8 or 10 listed .
257
258 A list of boards, commissions and groups was read aloud for the planning board.
259
260 Beth Bronson : Have they identified the " neighboring and partner jurisdictions". as anybody touching Orange County?
261
262 Tom Altieri : Primarily the ones we have agreements with , at this time that would be Durham City- County and Chatham
263 County then of course the municipalities including Mebane , Chapel Hill , Carrboro , Hillsborough .
264
265 Beth Bronson : There is no intention to interview with Alamance?
266
267 Tom Altieri : It wasn ' t identified at this time . I think if that were brought up , I ' m sure Clarion would entertain it .
268
269 Beth Bronson : I want to make sure its noted that Alamance was not identified .
270
271 Statler Gilfillen : You hit on communication with the stakeholder groups and less than accessible communities . It seems
272 like there is a strong technology component to this and I know that Orange County is working hard to get broadband to
273 its areas . I would encourage Clarion to think beyond just sending emails or directing them to the website because that
274 may not be feasible for broad swaths of Orange County even yet .
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275
276 Tom Altieri : I can follow up on that . I mention these equity opportunity areas . That' s one of the things that Clarion will do .
277 There ' s data available to identify our low to moderate income communities , our non - English speaking , transit dependent
278 riders , and identify these areas and see where they relate in terms of things like where broadband is available , where
279 transit is available . You ' ve heard of things like food deserts and things like that . That would be part of Clarion ' s work for
280 sure .
281
282 Beth Bronson : Just wondering if we will get notes from the work group meetings? Will we get debriefed or is that just at
283 those three different time points ?
284
285 Tom Altieri : Clarion did mention that they will be taking meeting notes at those meetings . Those would be publicly
286 available . Certainly , one of the items I would expect would be part of their website along with a lot of other information
287 about the project .
288
289
290 AGENDA ITEM 8 : PLANNING BOARD RULES OF PROCEDURE - To conduct a work session on potential
291 amendments to the Board ' s Rules of Procedure . Discussion will include possibly formalizing time
292 restrictions on applicants ' presentations and formalizing the current policy of limiting individual
293 comments to 3 minutes .
294
295 PRESENTER : Perdita Holtz , Deputy Director — Long - Range Planning & Administration
296
297 Perdita Holtz gave a short introduction to the work session topic of potential amendments to the Board ' s rules of
298 procedures regarding length of applicant and public comments .
299
300 Statler Gilfillen : reading from information in the packet . . . " Neighborhood planning board members shall be encouraged to
301 attend neighborhood information meetings . " I am the representative for the Eno District, I believe in March there may
302 have been a meeting about the Lawrence Road that was that public meeting . I don ' t remember seeing it, I missed it, how
303 do I encourage that if something is coming , in any of our respective district areas that somebody from planning might
304 give us a phone call or flag it to us so we don ' t miss it?
305
306 Perdita Holtz : I believe that an email went to the planning board telling you that there was going to be a neighborhood
307 information meeting .
308
309 Charity Kirk : There was .
310
311 Statler Gilfillen : I ' m in the district and I ' m the one that should have had a focus , but I apparently missed it and I admit that
312 1 missed it, it' s my mistake . I ' m trying to help the system so that any of us , if it' s in our district, that maybe a special effort
313 to send not just a general email but to us to flag it . Because it' s too easy to miss something .
314
315 Adam Beeman : If you missed that one , how would the second one get to you any different?
316
317 Charity Kirk : It was sent to the planning board , there' s only a few of us . . .
318
319 Beth Bronson : There' s also a website you can look at under the current projects and that will tell you if there ' s a
320 neighborhood information meeting and where that' s at . I normally check that every month or so .
321
322 Cy Stober: So actually one of the special projects that Ashley has been working on , is coordinating with community
323 relations on a monthly newsletter and that will include neighborhood information meetings that are coming up . We can
324 include planning board meetings on that newsletter, so you ' ll have an extra reminder.
325
326 Lamar Proctor: Is there any kind of state law that we should be aware of in terms of limiting people ' s ability to speak or
327 anything along those lines ? The state legislature has given us the ability to limit discussion at these meetings but to give
328 people the opportunity to discuss ?
329
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330 Perdita Holtz : You mean at the planning board meetings or at neighborhood information meetings ?
331
332 Lamar Proctor : Planning board meetings .
333
334 Perdita Holtz : Just to point out that if you do attend a neighborhood information meeting , you are attending as a planning
335 board representative , you do not speak for the board . No one member speaks for the board . As far as limiting public
336 comment , yes , local governments can limit the amount of time that is spent on particular items and a 3- minute time limit
337 is pretty typical throughout North Carolina .
338
339 Delores Bailey : When we are at a community meeting , do we have to acknowledge that we are planning board
340 members ?
341
342 Perdita Holtz : It would be good to do so , just to be open and transparent about everything .
343
344 Charity Kirk : I ' m fine with the three minutes .
345
346 Adam Beeman : That was going to be the first one I tackled , the three minutes . That should be non - controversial .
347
348 Melissa Poole : We thought it had been formalized .
349
350 Statler Gilfillen : Once in a great while , there might be one speaker that for good reason we might want to listen to longer .
351 Can a member of the board raise the point " can we have a vote to let this person speak another three minutes ? " Can we
352 do something like that procedurally?
353
354 Perdita Holtz : If you look at page 86 , number 3 says that the time allocations in 1 & 2 may be modified at a meeting by
355 an affirmative vote of the majority of the board members in attendance at the specific meeting .
356
357 Statler Gilfillen : So that' s built in ?
358
359 Perdita Holtz : You would have to make a motion , second and vote to allow extra time .
360
361 Adam Beeman : If we codify 3 minutes and if you choose to let someone else , you would have to ask us all to let
362 someone speak longer than 3 minutes .
363
364 Charity Kirk : Why do we need to codify 3 minutes since we ' ve been doing 3 minutes?
365
366 Melissa Poole : We thought we had voted on it, and we thought it was codified but apparently it is not, just like the 10 pm .
367 We voted on all this during COVID when we were going until 11 , 11 : 30 , 12 am meetings . So , Adam and I are the only
368 ones here now that were there then and we thought when we had proposed and voted on it, it had been adopted in but
369 apparently it wasn ' t formally adopted in .
370
371 Charity Kirk : So what happened to that and why are we . . .
372
373 Perdita Holtz : What happened with that is for the first time ever, the planning board had people en masse attending a
374 meeting . There were hundreds of people who wanted to speak , and it was during COVID , and it was online , and we
375 suggested that the 3 - minute time limit that the BOCC observes would also be what the planning board observes . The
376 board voted to agree that that would be what happened . There was no mention at the time of formalizing it into the rules
377 and procedures , just like the start time , you don ' t have to formalize it but when you ask "what is the benefit of doing so? "
378 it' s kind of what Melissa just alluded to , that eventually you get to the point that only 1 or 2 people were around that
379 remember what happened in the past . If it' s not written down , you end up going through the same cycle of " how do we
380 handle this? "
381
382 Charity Kirk : Okay , I ' m all for 3 minutes and I ' m all for all for a 10 pm stop time unless there is a vote .
383
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384 Chris Johnston : I ' m fine with the 3 minutes as well . On the public sign in sheet, I ' m new here , does it denote that you
385 only have 3 minutes? Does the public get made aware of that limitation ? I know their written comments show up on the
386 agenda , but I would hate to be a member of the public who sits here for an hour and a half and then be gob smacked
387 that I only get 3 minutes . I know we bring it up at the meeting itself, but I just want to make sure that we have as many
388 opportunities as possible to let people know what they are getting into .
389
390 Adam Beeman : I ' ve got to be honest with you , at that last meeting , nobody even read the thing because they all signed
391 up that they didn ' t want to speak and were then upset that I didn ' t call their name . Reading is a problem in general . . .
392
393 Charity Kirk : I do know that people had prepared stuff that seemed to be 3 minutes .
394
395 Beth Bronson : Most people kept it under 3 minutes . They are not trying to sit here on a soapbox .
396
397 Melissa Poole : We also limited people to only getting up one time . We sat through one where somebody got up 10 times .
398
399 Charity Kirk : Can we do 3 minutes and 1 time ?
400
401 Perdita Holtz : It is in there already and I had written on number 2 that persons may not . . . . . it does say " per person " , do we
402 need to say . . .
403
404 overlapping conversations
405
406 Adam Beeman : I don ' t want a husband standing up saying " I ' m going to speak for my wife for her 3 minutes too . "
407
408 Perdita Holtz : That' s in the next sentence , " persons may not yield/give their allotted time to another person to speak on
409 their behalf. "
410
411 Melissa Poole : I think we need to limit it to 1 time .
412
413 Lamar Proctor: Three minutes per person , per agenda item , right? Because you may have 2 or 3 things on an agenda . . .
414
415 Perdita Holtz : We can add " per agenda item " and that will make it even more clear. Chris , when we have public
416 comments , there are special sections at the end of the agenda , and I think that it does say there that there is a 3 - minute
417 time- limit per person .
418
419 Chris Johnston : As much as a CYA is possible , just so that we have the ability to say , " look guys , we put it here , here
420 and here . "
421
422 Charity Kirk : Hopefully they would prepare comments , so they were good . The ones that are prepared are always the
423 best .
424
425 Melissa Poole : Since this is a work session and we are not voting on anything yet, I would caution anyone who thinks
426 that you want to let 1 speaker have more time . Talk to some of us who are sitting up here about how well that worked out
427 on the first night of the Lawrence Road presentation .
428
429 Charity Kirk : I think it' s fine to have that language . I think it needs to be used sparingly .
430
431 Beth Bronson : Are we talking about the applicants or the public?
432
433 overlapping conversations
434
435 Perdita Holtz : We are going to take back what I think you said and bring back an agenda item next month .
436
437 Statler Gilfillen : When the Mayor of Hillsborough spoke for longer than 3 minutes , she wasn ' t the developer speaking .
438 How did her time . . .
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439
440 Adam Beeman : I asked her to read the letter than she sent to me and Ms . Bedford on the BOCC . So , she read the letter
441 that she sent me . There were no off the cuff remarks , it was simply reading a letter that she had submitted into the
442 record .
443
444 Melissa Poole : In all of our years , this is the first time we ' ve ever had a representative city or county , in all the years that
445 Adam and I have been here , come to say anything . So , it was a new one for us .
446
447 Adam Beeman : That was my decision , so if there ' s a problem , it was up to the chair on that one .
448
449 Melissa Poole : We talked about it though and you definitely were aware that other people were upset .
450
451 Adam Beeman : They didn ' t like the narrative being left where she left it , that was the issue . If she didn ' t come up and say
452 anything , they would ' ve been fat , dumb and happy but because she came up and left it with her letter, they were upset
453 that the public had to hear that and walk away for the night and think about that . That was the issue with them .
454
455 Melissa Poole : Some of them were upset that she went longer than 3 minutes .
456
457 Overlapping conversations
458
459 Adam Beeman : It was all my decision .
460
461 Melissa Poole : I know but that' s why I think it is important to make the point in this work session . I am not disagreeing
462 with adding it, I ' m just saying it needs to be very judiciously used .
463
464 Charity Kirk : How would you change the language so if we are not here anymore and it is someone in the future . . .
465
466 Melissa Poole : I ' m not saying that it shouldn ' t be there . I ' m just making the comment for those of us that are here .
467
468 Charity Kirk : In 10 years , none of us will be here .
469
470 Melissa Poole : This is my question for Charity . You brought forth and I think we all agreed with you bringing forth the
471 idea of applicant time limitations . What are you thinking ?
472
473 Overlapping conversations
474
475 Delores Bailey : Are we done with the 3 minutes ?
476
477 Beth Bronson : I will say , I ' m down to let people yield their time .
478
479 Adam Beeman : No , no , no . That is the wrong road to go down .
480
481 Overlapping conversations
482
483 Beth Bronson : I hear what you are saying . I am just saying I would consider it in that there may be one neighbor that
484 wants to represent . . . As long as all 5 people are here , signed in to speak . . .
485
486 Adam Beeman : They can submit their collective letter to the planning board Google Docs . I read all those things so if
487 they have some lengthy thing they want to say , submit away to the Commissioners and us on that Doc . I read it . I can ' t
488 speak for anyone else on this board , but I read those . The issue that we are going to come to is what they will all say ,
489 " not in my back yard . " I don ' t want someone to stand here and tell me my 15 neighbors said this too . Great , if the 15
490 neighbors want to say it, then line them up and tell me the same thing 15 times . I ' d rather them not say the same thing
491 15 times either . You ' re not getting anywhere with that because I get bored , and I ' m done listening .
492
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493 Beth Bronson : I ' ve seen City Council and Commissioners both when the public comes up , ask " are you saying
494 something different, because if you are not, we would like you to sit down . " Not that we would do that . . .
495
496 Adam Beeman : I ' ve asked them to keep the redundancy to a minimum and you still hear them come up and say the
497 same thing over and over again .
498
499 Melissa Poole : They want to be heard and they have a right to be heard . The 3 minutes is enough time to tell me what
500 you have got to say .
501
502 Perdita Holtz : I have seen interested groups get together and have 6 or 7 people and they have a presentation , and the
503 first person comes up and does their 3 minutes and the second person continues then the third person continues so they
504 are doing the presentation they want to do . There are ways around for groups to do things like that .
505
506 Beth Bronson : They should be that motivated . Then we can hear them out . If somebody were to contact the planning
507 board or the chair or the department ahead of our meeting and we knew that they were coming to speak , then you would
508 have a better idea if this is somebody we might vote on to give more than 3 minutes .
509
510 Charity Kirk : I don ' t feel your idea that people can give their time to someone else .
511
512 Beth Bronson : I have already written that off.
513
514 Charity Kirk : So are we good with 3 minutes per agenda item ?
515
516 Overlapping conversations
517
518 Statler Gilfillen : How many people were at the County Commissioners meeting last night about Lawrence Road ? I was .
519 Is everybody aware that they went too long , just like we did , and they are going to take it later? However, I think we can
520 all be very proud . This is a very contentious issue . I ' ve listened through several meetings here . People are afraid , they
521 are concerned , it is in their neighborhood . It' s a divided community on this . Last night would have been the point that it
522 could have been most explosive . Sitting on this board , I ' m very proud as a citizen in Orange County that everybody
523 expressed it, yes you could hear that they were angry and afraid , or they didn ' t want it, but I think it was our system
524 working at its best . I was very pleased at how most people got to be heard last night .
525
526 Charity Kirk : What does this have to do with our. agenda ?
527
528 Statler Gilfillen : At 3 minutes that buzzer went off and people shut up and sat down .
529
530 Delores Bailey : Are we voting on these things separately or are they to be presented together? It seems to me that
531 separately makes more sense .
532
533 Perdita Holtz : I was planning on bringing what we talked about in one agenda item next month .
534
535 Beth Bronson : This is a work session today , there is no motion for anything , we are just discussing it? This will be
536 brought as an agenda item that will be voted on ?
537
538 Perdita Holtz : As one agenda item just like we don ' t vote on UDO amendments line by line either.
539
540 Adam Beeman : We are in agreement that we are going for the 3 - minute rule , no passing the time , per person per
541 agenda .
542
543 Delores Bailey : Do we have a buzzer?
544
545 Adam Beeman : Yes . It sits over there where Sharon sits .
546
547 Discussion about the function of the buzzer and lights.
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548
549 Beth Bronson : The only period that public comments can be heard is after each agenda item or is there a public
550 comment period before the agenda items are started ?
551
552 Perdita Holtz : So on planning board agendas there is no public comment period except for an agenda item .
553
554 Melissa Poole : So we are codifying it?
555
556 Perdita Holtz : This is just going in the rules and procedures , it' s not codification .
557
558 Melissa Poole : But we are all in agreement . . .
559
560 Beth Bronson : That when she presents this next month , we will all have been aware and briefed and we are all in
561 agreement for now .
562
563 Adam Beeman : So the 3 minutes were good , let' s move on to the applicant because that' s where my focus is .
564
565 Perdita Holtz : Are we also good on the 10 o ' clock stop time ?
566
567 Melissa Poole : Yes , we are so good .
568
569 Perdita Holtz : I need to hear from someone other than Melissa too .
570
571 Charity Kirk : 10 pm stop time unless there ' s a vote to continue .
572
573 Beth Bronson : What about a 7 : 30 pm start time ?
574
575 Delores Bailey : So you are saying at 10 pm we have to take a vote ?
576
577 Perdita Holtz : 7 o' clock is pretty standard for in Orange County .
578
579 Adam Beeman : The meeting is closed at 10 o ' clock every time unless there is a vote to extend it .
580
581 Delores Bailey : Okay , so if it is going at 10 o' clock , when people are ready to go , if any one of us wants to continue can
582 we put the vote out?
583
584 Adam Beeman : Yes_ , you have to put it to the entire group of us and the majority will rule on that one .
585
586 Lamar Proctor : Motion , second and vote .
587
588 Adam Beeman : If we are in the meeting and there are only 2 people left and you decide you want to hear them , " hey can
589 we extend this thing to 10 : 30 we would all have to agree . Otherwise , 10 , it' s done .
590
591 Melissa Poole : Isn ' t it just standard , we don ' t have to vote on this right? I thought when we discussed this last time and
592 said 10 , that we would come back into special session . Or do we have to vote for special session ?
593
594 Perdita Holtz : It depends on how it' s going to be handled , if you are going to continue it to the next planning board
595 meeting then it would just be continued to the next one . If you want to do it sooner than the next meeting , you would
596 have to say we want to continue this to a special session , and it needs to be decided that night what date that is .
597
598 Beth Bronson : There has to be a motion to continue ?
599
600 Perdita Holtz : Yes . If you still have members of the public to hear from , yes .
601
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602 Beth Bronson : To my point of there are just 2 people left to hear from or we think we can come to an agreement by
603 10 : 30 , that would be a reason to make a motion to extend the meeting ?
604
605 Charity Kirk : This is called a special session , there is a question about a special session .
606
607 Adam Beeman : I think what Beth was saying is if we thought that we would be able to clear it out quick enough that' s
608 where she wanted to make the motion to say hey, 10 : 30 . . .
609
610 Beth Bronson : We can ' t make a motion to end the meeting without resolving the agenda item . It either gets continued ,
611 resolved , or we stay .
612
613 Perdita Holtz : Once there ' s no quorum , the meeting ends .
614
615 Discussion ensued about the concept of resolving the agenda item before the meeting can end. Overlapping
616 conversations.
617
618 Delores Bailey : When we say we are going to take it up later, do we determine when that will be?
619
620 Adam Beeman : We determine that .
621
622 Perdita Holtz : I believe if you are going to do a special meeting , you have to give 2 days ' notice under open meetings
623 law . So , it could not be the next night .
624
625 Delores Bailey : I understand wanting to get out of here at 10 o ' clock , I totally get that . There ' s also the level of the public
626 is coming out, they've spent the time getting here . It takes time to come to these things and find day care and to have
627 them end at 10 o ' clock and them be on the list and then have to do it all over again the following week . I am all for the 10
628 o ' clock and am going to vote for it but I ' m just voicing a feeling of. . .
629
630 Charity Kirk : I think Lawrence Road was incredibly rude from the applicants . . .
631
632 Adam Beeman : From my years of experience , we don ' t typically push meetings . I think this next part of the conversation
633 where we determine how long the applicant is going to spend , will dictate . . . .
634
635 Overlapping conversations .
636
637 Adam Beeman : If that' s the case , we won ' t stack two huge projects that same night and we can deal with one and get it
638 through . Just because you have the opportunity to speak to us , we are not the end all , be all . We are just making a
639 recommendation . They still have the opportunity to go sit in front of the people that actually make the final decision and
640 say their peace . The people you really want to speak to , are the other group , not us . The BOCC is the one that makes
641 the decision regardless . The planning board recommended Buc-ee ' s and as you see , there is no Buc-ee' s in Orange
642 County .
643
644 Delores Bailey : If we are going to limit the time that the applicant can do , can ' t the applicant tell us how much time they
645 are going to take?
646
647 Charity Kirk : That was my suggestion that they need to inform staff if it is going to be longer than a certain amount of
648 time so that a special meeting can be devoted to them .
649
650 Adam Beeman : That whole thing was way out of bounds . The developer and the lawyer were the only 2 people that
651 should have spoken . The tennis and HYAA should have signed up for their 3 minutes . They shouldn 't have been part of
652 the presentation . I don ' t care about all that fluff.
653
654 Delores Bailey : The thing that keeps coming to my mind was when the applicant was sitting in the audience , and he got
655 back up and spoke during public comment time .
656
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657 Adam Beeman : He was answering questions . There was only one applicant, and his name was on the sheet . That' s how
658 it needs to be going forward so that we only have to hear from one person . I only want to hear one cohesive story .
659
660 Perdita Holtz : I don ' t know that that is realistic because a lot of applicants will have an engineer . . . .
661
662 Adam Beeman : I don ' t need to know about how the school is going to operate . I don ' t care if you are going to grade them
663 on a curve or how they are going to be fed , that has nothing to do with our decision on land use . Those are the type of
664 things that I ' m looking to restrict .
665
666 Statler Gilfillen : I am not sure I fully agree with that comment . I do that often , the operation of something affects the land
667 use .
668
669 Melissa Poole : That particular presentation it shouldn ' t have . You can ' t consider what it was , you can only consider the
670 rezoning .
671
672 Charity Kirk : The Eden Acres thing was all fluff about the sustainability and permaculture path .
673
674 Adam Beeman : I think that the perception they have about the county , they are trying to put their best foot forward and
675 cover all their bases . Just come in here and discuss the things that are relevant to what we are talking about .
676
677 Delores Bailey : Once they get to the podium , we can ' t stop that, right?
678
679 Overlapping conversation .
680
681 Adam Beeman : We are going to dictate this so that when they come and apply , they have an understanding that they
682 only have a limited amount of time to get their pitch out .
683 .
684 Overlapping conversations
685
686 Charity Kirk : My original suggestion was for them to have a time limit and if they want to go more , then they need to have
687 their own meeting but they need to let us know way ahead of time so we can plan for that .
688
689 Perdita Holtz : We might not be able to guarantee that they will have their own meeting if there is a slew of applications .
690
691 Overlapping conversations.
692
693 Perdita Holtz : There ' s a limit to how long we can push them off.
694
695 Charity Kirk : That was just my original suggestion , I ' m not attached to it .
696
697 Whitney Watson : I think it would be helpful if the applicant was required or strongly encouraged to provide a list of
698 speakers so when they have to think about who is going to do a presentation , yes , we may have an engineer, yes , we
699 may have a group representing and athletic function in the community or whoever. But when they have to think about
700 who the 4 or 5 people are who can speak , within a 3045- minute period , that helps them focus .
701
702 Perdita Holtz : I think if there is a time limit, a thinking person is going to think about how many minutes each person on
703 their team gets .
704
705 Adam Beeman : The baseball and the tennis , they are not even tenants . So , they were just on the outside speaking . They
706 shouldn ' t have even been in the equation .
707
708 Cy Stober: Let me tell you what we need from you . We need something in the rules of procedure so that when we
709 communicate with an applicant , good bad , in between , really professional , mom and pop doing this for the first time , we
710 can say , you have X minutes to make your presentation . If you need more time than that, you should front load your
711 presentation by formally requesting additional time due to some extraordinary aspects of your application . You need to
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712 plan on 15 , 25 , 45 minutes an hour and 25 minutes , whatever you all decide . We need a limit that we can communicate
713 to the applicant whether it' s their engineer, their attorney , to say this is how much time you have . Plan accordingly .
714
715 Adam Beeman : This isn ' t limiting the debate ; this is just limiting the amount of time that they come and give us the "this
716 is what we want to do . " We can debate for 3 hours if we choose .
717
718 Melissa Poole : If you tell them up front "you have 30 minutes for presentation " and they tell us up front that they need
719 more time , would we have to make a motion to give them that additional time right off the bat?
720
721 Cy Stober: Yes , I would advise you to do that in increments of time .
722
723 Delores Bailey : Can we say 30 with a limit of 45 ?
724
725 Beth Bronson : I don ' t think we can do a maximum .
726
727 Charity Kirk : You all have sat through a lot of presentations . What do you feel like is an adequate time limit?
728
729 Cy Stober: I would say anywhere from 3045 minutes is completely reasonable .
730
731 Melissa Poole : I think 45 .
732
733 Conversation about past presentations.
734
735 Delores Bailey : We can ' t talk in between their presentations , right?
736
737 Adam Beeman : Moving forward , my plan is to go one by one and let everyone ask their questions at once . I don 't want to
738 bounce around .
739
740 Delores Bailey : We have to agree as a board that we will not ask them questions while they are talking .
741
742 Melissa Poole : So are we all good with the 45 minutes ?
743
744 Overlapping conversation about time limit.
745
746 Beth Bronson : All applicants are allotted 30 minutes for their presentation however if they believe their presentation will
747 extend past 30 minutes , they need to provide that estimation for additional time at the start of the presentation . We have
748 to make a motion on approving or denying it?
749
750 Adam Beeman : Yes . If you say it' s going to take you 50 minutes , we are going to have to vote whether to give you that
751 extra 20 . We have to vote that in as a majority .
752
753 Overlapping conversation
754
755 Lamar Proctor: If I ' m an applicant working with the planning department and I say " This is very complicated and it' s
756 probably going to take us an hour" I would think that if you tell them , our rules are 30 minutes but on motion it can be
757 extended so my recommendation to you applicant, is that you make that motion at the beginning of your presentation
758 otherwise it' s 30 minutes .
759
760 Adam Beeman : It' s not guaranteed that we agree to extend it.
761
762 Perdita Holtz : If you look at number 3 in what I provided the planning board can vote for more time , it could be at the end
763 of 30 minutes if they are still going . The chair says "you are at your 30 : minute limit, and they can say "can I have more
764 time" then you guys . . .
765
766 Charity Kirk : So no more than 30 minutes . . .
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767
768 Whitney Watson : Unless we vote on it .
769
770 Melissa Poole : Where the 2 Xs are , we want 30 minutes .
771
772 Chris Johnston : Do we want any staff recommendation that the presentation looks to be something . . . . in the same way
773 that staff has the recommendation that this follows the planning board requirements and the UDO and that sort of thing ?
774
775 Perdita Holtz : If we know in advance before abstracts are written and go out that this might be longer, it could be
776 something that we can add into the abstract . So that you would even know a week in advance that this might need more
777 time .
778
779 Melissa Poole : I would like to recommend that we codify forever in time into the rules and procedures that planning
780 board members would be recognized by the chair for questions or comments .
781 1 just want some formality because oftentimes things get lost with people speaking over one another .
782
783 Discussion ensued about this topic.
784 1 . 30-minute limit on applicant presentations
785 2. Want to codify into the procedures 10 pm stop time.
786 3. Codify ability to add more time to applicant presentations if voted on .
787 4 . Planning board members will not ask questions during applicants 30 minutes.
788 5. 3 minutes per person per agenda item
789
790 Discussion ensued about the question of having a lawyer speak for the public in some instances .
791
792 Lamar Proctor : Several of the neighborhood information meetings I attended this spring were just over an hour in length ,
793 is that a function of where they were held ? It seems to me there ought to be some relationship between the presentation
794 here and the length of presentation at those information meetings . They only had an hour because of the library and
795 maybe that' s a guideline that could be passed along to the applicant, you ' ve got 30 minutes to do your presentation then
796 30 minutes for comment .
797
798 Cy Stober: I really appreciate that feedback and I think as we move into the NIMs being hosted by the applicant , that
799 offers a much greater opportunity for that . . . . those meetings are intended to be a deep dive for the community to give
800 feedback and for the applicant to pivot and amend their application accordingly , whether it' s their site plan or adding
801 conditions , commitments , etc . It sounds like there ' s some lack of knowledge about all the efforts we are going to with
802 public engagement so what I would like to recommend is that perhaps later this summer, Ashley come back after we ' ve
803 formalized our newsletter which will come out at the end of June . We are planning on an Economic Development
804 presentation to you all in July .
805
806
807 AGENDA ITEM 9 : ADJOURNMENT
808 MOTION BY Melissa Poole to adjourn . Seconded by Beth Bronson .
809 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
810
811
812 Adam Beeman , Chair