HomeMy WebLinkAbout3.8.23 PB Minutes Approved 4 - 5 - 23
1 MEETING MINUTES
2 ORANGE COUNTY PLANNING BOARD
3 MARCH 8 , 2023
4 REGULAR MEETING
5
6 MEMBERS PRESENT : Adam Beeman ( Chair) , Cedar Grove Township Representative ; Lamar Proctor (Vice- Chair) ,
7 Cheeks Township Representative ; David Blankfard , Hillsborough Township Representative ; Melissa Poole , Little River
8 Township Representative ; Beth Bronson , At- Large Representative ; Randy Marshall , At- Large Representative ; Charity
9 Kirk , At- Large Representative ; Susan Hunter, Chapel Hill Township Representative ; Statler Gilfillen , Eno Township
10 Representative ; Whitney Watson , At- Large Representative ; Delores Bailey , At- Large Representative ; Steve Kaufmann ,
11 Bingham Township Representative ;
12
13 STAFF PRESENT : Cy Stober, Planning & Inspections Director; Perdita Holtz , Deputy Director — Long Range Planning and
14 Administration ; Patrick Mallett, Deputy Director; Development Services Division Taylor Perschau , Current Planning and
15 Zoning Supervisor; Brian Collie , Planner II ; Tina Love , Administrative Support
16
17 OTHERS PRESENT : George Barnes , Applicant ; Bob Hornik , Attorney for Applicant ; Brent Purdum , Engineer/Architect;
18 Vernon Davis , Property Owner; Preston Mason , Rob Jamison , John Cecil , Pat Cecil , Susan Walser, Marilee McTigue ,
19 Steve O ' Daniel , Carol Rigsbee , Deanna Smith , Greg Tilley , Sally Jo Slushen , Chris McCord , Diantha Rau , Jessica
20 Ostrowski , Sadie Rapp , Isa Cheren , Elly Schopler, Amanda Griffin , John Griffin , Peter Moyers , Katie Engel , Tony Blake ,
21 Jayne Jackson , Robert Pollock , Jake Bialos , Rev , Cory Oliver, Tammre Lindsey , Rebecca Teer, Chris Hagenberger,
22 Jesus Bravo , Lisa Dumain , Eric Dumain , Dr . Anndal Narayanan , Kevin Reese , Clare Steech -Julich ,
23
24
25 AGENDA ITEM 1 : CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL
26 Chair Adam Beeman called the meeting to order
27
28
29 AGENDA ITEM 2 : ELECTION OF CHAIR AND VICE - CHAIR FOR 2023
30
31 MOTION BY Lamar Proctor to nominate Adam Beeman as Chair. Seconded by Melissa Poole .
32 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
33
34 MOTION BY Melissa Poole to nominate Lamar Proctor as Vice- Chair . Seconded by Adam Beeman .
35 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
36
37
38 AGENDA ITEM 3 . INFORMATION ITEMS
39 a . Planning Calendar for March and April
40 b . Planning Board Members Scheduled to Transition off the Board on March 31
41 c . Tina Love , Administrative Support is retiring
42 d . Verbal Update from Staff on RFP ( Request for Proposals) for Comprehensive Land Use Plan
43 e . Memo Regarding Planning Board ' s Request of Information About Notification Boundaries for
44 Neighborhood Information Meetings ( NIMs)
45
46
47 AGENDA ITEM 4 : APPROVAL OF MINUTES
48 December 7 , 2022 Regular Meeting Minutes
49 January 4 , 2023 Training Notes
50
51 MOTION BY Melissa Poole to approve the December 7 , 2022 Regular Meeting Minutes and January 4 , 2023 Training
52 Notes . Seconded by Randy Marshall .
53 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
54
55
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56 AGENDA ITEM 51 CONSIDERATION OF ADDITIONS TO AGENDA.
57 There were none
58
59
60 AGENDA ITEM 6 : PUBLIC CHARGE
61
62 INTRODUCTION TO THE PUBLIC CHARGE
63 The Board of County Commissioners , under the authority of North Carolina General Statute , appoints
64 the Orange County Planning Board ( OCPB ) to uphold the written land development law of the County .
65 The general purpose of OCPB is to guide and accomplish coordinated and harmonious development .
66 OCPB shall do so in a manner, which considers the present and future needs of its citizens and
67 businesses through efficient and responsive process that contributes to and promotes the health , safety,
68 and welfare of the overall County . The OCPB will make every effort to uphold a vision of responsive
69 governance and quality public services during our deliberations , decisions , and recommendations .
70
71
72 PUBLIC CHARGE
73 The Planning Board pledges to the citizens of Orange County its respect . The Board asks its citizens to
74 conduct themselves in a respectful , courteous manner, both with the Board and with fellow citizens . At
75 any time , should any member of the Board or any citizen fail to observe this public charge , the Chair will
76 ask the offending member to leave the meeting until that individual regains personal control . Should
77 decorum fail to be restored , the Chair will recess the meeting until such time that a genuine commitment
78 to this public charge is observed .
79
80
81 AGENDA ITEM 7 : CHAIR COMMENTS
82 There were none
83
84
85 AGENDA ITEM 8 : PROPOSED AMENDMENT (ADDITION ) TO THE ORANGE COUNTY - CHAPEL HILL - CARRBORO JOINT
86 PLANNING LAND USE PLAN (JPLUP) , THE ORANGE COUNTY COMPREHENSIVE FUTURE LAND USE MAP
87 ( FLUM ) , AND THE ORANGE COUNTY ZONING ATLAS - To review and make a recommendation to the
88 BOCC on an applicant- initiated amendment to the JPLUP , FLUM , and Zoning Atlas to apply a Land
89 Use classification and Zoning District to a portion of a parcel that was annexed into Orange County
90 from Chatham County in 2021 . The annexed portion is 4 . 66 acres in size ; the full parcel is 8 . 14 acres .
91 The requested Land Use classification is Rural Buffer and the requested Zoning district is RB ( Rural
92 Buffer) .
93
94 The parcel ' s address is 2106 Mount Carmel Church Road in the Chapel Hill Township ( PIN 9796 - 29 -
95 3144 ) . A joint public hearing will be scheduled for this item , date is to be determined .
96
97 PRESENTER : Perdita Holtz , Deputy Director — Long Range Planning and Administration
98
99 Perdita Holtz reviewed the proposed amendments then answered questions .
100
101 Applicant Gordon Brown, Chapel Hill attorney representing Mt. Carmel Baptist Church, gave brief comments about the
102 history of the church property. The property, before 1777 was considered Orange County. Then it was changed to
103 Chatham County. Two hundred forty-four years later it changed back to Orange County but was unzoned at that time. It
104 has been difficult at times to do everyday projects or building projects and deal with two jurisdictions. The property is
105 4. 66 acres and has been in continuous church use. There will be no change to the regular use of the church .
106
107 Charity Kirk : I ' m just curious why you are trying to get into Orange County rather than Chatham County , because it
108 seems like the zoning is easier in Chatham .
109
110 Gordon Brown : The church picked Orange . Most of its physical facility is in Orange and has been .
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111 Charity Kirk : Now there ' s going to be this strange bump on the county line . I was just wondering why Orange County was
112 the choice rather than Chatham .
113
114 Gordon Brown : They just chose Orange .
115
116 Charity Kirk : Okay , trying to consolidate into a single county .
117
118 Gordon Brown : Yes , in the Mother County .
119
120 Charity Kirk : Okay ,
121
122 Beth Bronson : I just wanted to confirm if you had applied for a building program in Chatham County?
123
124 Gordon Brown : No . There ' s no building program applied for now . There ' s got to be planning and fundraising and lots of
125 stuff. There ' s lots going on , but nothing happens before it comes back through this county , assuming we get zoned . If
126 you ' re not zoned , you don ' t take the next step , right?
127
128 Beth Bronson - I was just wondering what' s the congregation membership?
129
130 Ralph Taylor, Church Committees member: The membership is 400- 500 with normal Sunday attendance around 200 .
131
132 Delores Bailey : Why is Carrboro involved in this ?
133
134 Perdita Holtz : Because Carrboro is part of the Joint Planning Land Use Plan which is an agreement between three local
135 governments , Orange County , Chapel Hill , and Carrboro . Any land use map amendment has to be approved by all three
136 local governments .
137
138 Perdita Holtz : The Planning Director' s recommendation is to receive the multi - part application , to deliberate on the
139 proposal as desired , consider the Planning Director' s recommendation , and to make a recommendation to the County
140 Commissioners on the three documents , Attachments 4 , 5 & 6 .
141
142 MOTION BY Charity Kirk to approve the Resolution to Amend the Joint Planning Land Use Plan , the Statement of
143 Consistency indicating the zoning atlas amendment is reasonable and in the public interest and the Ordinance amending
144 the Orange County Comprehensive Plan ' s Future Land Use Map and Zoning Atlas . Seconded by Statler Gilfillen .
145 MOTION PASSED UNANIMOUSLY
146
147
148 AGENDA ITEM 9 : ZONING ATLAS AMENDMENT (CONDITIONAL DISTRICT) - To review and make a recommendation to the
149 BOCC on an applicant- initiated zoning atlas amendment to rezone a 4 . 83 acre parcel from AR
150 (Agricultural Residential ) ( 3 . 67 acres) & NC-2 ( Neighborhood Commercial ) ( 1 . 16 acres) to NR- CD
151 ( Non - Residential Conditional District) .
152
153 The parcel ' s address is 3026 White Cross Road in the Bingham Township ( PIN 9749 -40 -2351 ) . This
154 item is scheduled for BOCC Public Hearing on April 4 , 2023 .
155 PRESENTER : Brian Collie , Planner II
156
157 Taylor Perschau and Brian Collie reviewed the proposed amendment and gave a PowerPoint Presentation .
158
159 Applicant representative, Bob Hornik, reviewed the project and provided additional information .
160
161 Lamar Proctor : Can you talk more about why it is a Resource Protection Area ?
162
163 Bob Hornik : Because of the proximity to the White Cross School across the street . That' s why you see the green circle
164 on the map .
165
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166 Brian Collie : That is correct, that green area that sprawls over across onto this property is for the White Cross School .
167
168 Lamar Proctor: It' s for the school then it goes off in a line and that follows a stream . . .
169
170 Brian Collie : Yes , stream buffers
171
172 Lamar Proctor : And so , does the stream go on the school property? I ' m just trying to figure it out .
173
174 Brian Collie : I ' m not sure if it goes onto the school property or not .
175
176 Charity Kirk : It' s two separate things .
177
178 Lamar Proctor: Okay .
179
180 Statler Gilfillen : I believe that this issue came before this board a few months ago and a decision was made . It has only
181 been a few months , can you clarify for me , why this is brought up before us again tonight? What is the justification of
182 change?
183
184 Bob Hornik : I can give you what I , as the applicant, think it is . The application previously was for a general use district
185 which would have allowed 110 + different uses . We had no specific site plan , no specific detail about the plan . That
186 Planning Board meeting was back in July or August of 2022 and after that meeting , we regrouped and said " here are
187 what the concerns were , it seemed to be that it was a Dollar General store and many people were concerned that with a
188 general use zoning , it could be almost anything . We thought that the best way that we could try to give some assurance
189 to the County and the residents of the area about what was going to go there , would be to step back , rethink it and to do
190 some of the engineering and to present a site-specific development plan and a conditional district rezoning . The non -
191 residential district is the district that' s available and suitable , for this kind of use . So , after some discussion with the
192 planning staff, they felt it was a different enough application , and we do too , in quality and in kind , that it wasn 't subject to
193 the one year waiting period . No one that I know of challenged that .
194
195 Steve Kaufmann : I remember distinctly talk of a Dollar General going in there . And that was one of the reasons , in my
196 opinion why the board wasn 't interested . It didn 't quite fit in with that community setting , with the residential and business
197 district in general . They were all against having a Dollar General store there . The discussion was about Dollar General
198 as I remember it .
199
200 Bob Hornik : I don 't doubt that for a second . however, I don 't think you can make a recommendation , under zoning , based
201 on who the user is . I would think that' s an abuse of the zoning power.
202
203 Beth Bronson : To his point, I think it had more to do with the character of the area than what the actual development
204 was .
205
206 Bob Hornick : Regarding the character of the area , you ' ve got 2 or 3 steel buildings across the street. In my view, the
207 facade that' s going to be on this Dollar General store , will be a significant improvement over what's in the area .
208
209 Cy Stober : What you have laid out before you is documented in emails from staff and Mr. Hornik , is the rationale for why
210 1 supported the application proceeding and didn ' t halt it . The ordinance does require that we get a dissimilar application
211 before us and what you see here , the zoning request for single use , proposed the difference in acreage , and then the
212 site specific commitments , and then furthermore , the lack of an impact to the commercial balance for development in that
213 activity node , are all the rationale for why I made the determination on behalf of the County that this application could
214 proceed . So , what you have before you , is my rationale and why I made that decision . That was before we saw a site
215 plan or anything , that was just the general nature of the request, and that it would be a single use with a site-specific
216 plan . Regarding the use , the use before you tonight is for a retail store . That is the only use that we as planners or you
217 as planning board can consider . There' s federal matter of due process and equal protection under the law, that has to
218 be considered . You cannot consider this with regard to the specific tenant that would occupy the building . There are
219 certain carve outs say , adult uses , that do consider specific uses to be exceptionally different from other commercial
220 uses or entertainment uses , but in the case of general retail store , we can ' t consider whether it be a locally owned and
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221 operated store , it would be a nationally owned and operated store , the franchise that would be locally owned and
222 operated but speak to a higher corporate power, we don 't take any of that into consideration . We have to consider a
223 general retail store use , that is our responsibility , and that' s the responsibility before you tonight as well .
224
225 Charity Kirk : We wouldn ' t be setting a precedent in denying dollar stores . Other areas in the country have limited chain
226 stores . How could we do that as a community? You ' re saying that isn ' t the Planning Board ' s charge , so who can say that
227 we don ' t want dollar stores ?
228
229 Cy Stober : In North Carolina , it' s been determined by the General Assembly , that we shall consider uses and not specific
230 tenants . Unless they change the law to allow us to regulate them differently , we don 't have that enabling legislation or
231 power in North Carolina .
232
233 Charity Kirk : Would it need to be a state mandate to allow communities to limit the chain stores and types of stores ?
234
235 Cy Stober : Yes , in North Carolina as our State law is constructed . That' s my understanding of 160- D , that the zoning
236 laws broadly limit us to consider categories of uses rather than specific uses such as a dollar store unless explicitly
237 otherwise stated .
238
239 Melissa Poole- On page 114 of our packet on the map of where the site is proposed , where is the school in relation to
240 the site?
241
242 Cy Stober- I believe it' s not the corner parcel , it' s the one just to the west of the stream . The stream defines the school ' s
243 eastern property boundary . That stream is on the property , as well as the school .
244
245 Melissa Poole- What sort of school is this ?
246
247 Cy Stober- It' s a historic unoccupied school . It' s not used as a school .
248
249 Beth Bronson - It' s not used as a school but it' s a historic landmark .
250
251 Melissa Poole - There ' s an HVAC business and then another building to the right, across the road ?
252
253 Discussion about the maps provided in the packet by several Board members.
254
255 Cy Stober- Can you repeat the question Ms . Poole?
256
257 Melissa Poole- If you make a right on White Cross Rd . , what is that?
258
259 Cy Stober- I don ' t know . I ' m sure some of the folks from the community who are here , could tell you .
260
261 Voices from the crowd can be heard, explaining what the other buildings on the map are.
262
263 Adam Beeman - It' s commercial . You ' ve got HVAC , woodworking , etc .
264
265 Melissa Poole - The reason I ' m asking is not whether or not it is zoned , but I am curious to what the businesses are to
266 determine how many people are coming in and out .
267
268 Beth Bronson - To my knowledge , there are 2 gas stations at that intersection . There is also a restaurant and a market .
269
270 Melissa Poole- When you look on page 114 of the packet at the site , the section that comes down White Cross Road
271 when you ' ve turned off of 54 , what is the smaller rectangle there going to be ? Is that going to be a parking lot?
272
273 Adam Beeman - No , they are going to fill it in with plantings to block the view from the homeowner.
274
275 Delores Bailey. Impervious surface. What' s our requirement and what are they using and how much are they using of it?
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276
277 Brian Collie - This is located in an unprotected watershed and there aren ' t impervious maximums in that watershed .
278
279 Delores Bailey- If the red building is not moved by someone , can it be repurposed with any of the parts salvaged as
280 opposed to just throwing them away?
281
282 Bob Hornik- Not by us and it looks like it' s in pretty rough shape on the outside for sure . There are planks falling off and it
283 is in rough shape .
284
285 Charity Kirk. There is something in the packet about it being a historic building that has been remodeled many times .
286
287 Delores Bailey- The one with the red top?
288
289 Charity Kirk- The one that' s on the property . It' s been remodeled so many times that it' s lost its character, but it could still
290 potentially be refurbished .
291
292 Bob Hornik- It has historic origins but has been changed over time .
293
294 Statler- Are there photographs of that building available tonight to see ?
295
296 Bob Hornik- No , not that I have .
297
298 Adam Beeman . If you pull Google Maps up , you can probably see a street view . It' s a pretty nondescript building .
299
300 Statler- I turned my phone off, so I can ' t see .
301
302 Delores Bailey. I think the last time we talked about this area maybe being a food desert . Is there any nutritional value
303 coming through this store ?
304
305 Bob Hornik- Just like in other Dollar General stores , there will be food stuffs sold there .
306
307 Statler- When a large chain store like a Wal Mart comes into a community, often it makes a major impact and puts many
308 businesses out of business . Competition is good , price is important , we all know that . This is a discussion about a
309 national company who wants to come into4a small community where there are a series of small stores and the possibility
310 that the Mexican market that now sells milk , may not be competitive long -term . The question is , has an impact study
311 been done on what this could mean for the community?
312
313 Bob Hornik- I don ' t have the answer to that question . I do know that Dollar General has done a study and found that
314 there is a market for them in this location .
315
316 Statler- Even with the other Dollar General stores you have that are close in the area?
317
318 Bob Hornik- Yes , sir .
319
320 Vernon Davis , property owner- A little history of the building . It was built in 1929 as a branch of the Junior Order of
321 America . They used the bottom as a grocery store and the top floor as a meeting hall . I purchased the property in 1974 .
322 Prior to that , the state had acquired the right of way on Highway 54 and moved the building back . The property was
323 moved over an existing road drain and also set it down directly on the ground . The building has served several purposes .
324 It has restricted parking due to the existing property lines and right of way that comes within 6 feet of the building . There
325 is no room there for parking with the existing building . There has been some interest in salvaging the building . I ' m not
326 going to trash the building . My daughter wants to move the front part, if we get permission to move it, and whoever wants
327 the tall part is welcome to it . There are windows , flooring , siding , and all that will be repurposed . I live just a mile down
328 the road on a 5 -generation farm . I ' m 80 years old and I just want to get rid of this property so I can spend my last years
329 on the farm . Anybody that has an interest in that is welcome to it . I am a building contractor and I have built 2 other
330 businesses , one being a market and one being a service station . They did very well . I am a long -time resident of the
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331 community and I want to see the community do good . I am not here to just put something that will not serve the
332 community in it . The reason the property hasn 't been sold before is because of the restrictions that have been imposed
333 on it by the County . Dollar General was the only person that could meet all the requirements to purchase this property if
334 it' s approved . I would like to urge the Board to consider approval . I am an Orange County resident , have been and will
335 continue to be . I hope that you will consider this request and I will try to answer questions if you have any .
336
337 Whitney Watson - I appreciate that you included the renderings of the lighting , but could you speak further about it being
338 dark sky compliant?
339
340 Bob Hornik- I do know that the lighting is all downward shielded and is confined to the storefront area . I don ' t think there
341 are any free-standing light poles in the parking lot .
342
343 Whitney Watson - My other question has to do with the location of the wells . I read in the packet that a permit has not yet
344 been applied for . I wondered if you could indicate on the plan , approximately where you are going to have someone start
345 looking for water.
346
347 Adam Beeman - I think it' s on there . I believe it' s off to the side on the top left half corner of the building where the 54
348 frontage is .
349
350 Brent Purdum - ( Indicating a location on the map) ThatIs where we are proposing the well to go . Up there , close to the
351 corner where the woods are . So it would be behind the building , close to the 54 - buffer line .
352
353 Beth Bronson - Can you speak to how many locations were tested before that was the one , they came up with ?
354
355 Brent Purdum - We haven ' t done a well test .
356
357 Beth Bronson - Okay , so no well tests have been done ?
358
359 Brent Purdum - No , ma' am , we are just proposing it because we have to meet certain distances .
360
361 Beth Bronson - If there is no well test, there is no alternative means to bring water out to that area , correct?
362
363 Brent Purdum - As far as we know, correct .
364
365 Adam Beeman - Do they do well tests here in Orange County?
366
367 Beth Bronson . You have to test to be able to perc .
368
369 Adam Beeman - Percing is different . . .
370
371 Brent Purdum- That' s the septic system .
372
373 Beth Bronson - I apologize , yes , sorry .
374
375 Brent Purdum - We ' ve done the testing for the septic tank . We do have the perc test . That' s going to be between the
376 parking and the newly landscaped southern border.
377
378 Beth Bronson - So that top left corner that you ' re speaking to is for the septic?
379
380 Brent Purdum - No , that' s for the well . The well is on the north side , septic is on the south side .
381
382 Randy Marshall - We keep talking about the rezoning , and we don ' t talk about what' s going in there , on the other hand ,
383 half the questions are about what' s going in there . I ' m not even sure what' s appropriate to be questioned .
384
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385 Bob Hornik- Because this is a conditional rezoning , we' re not only allowed to talk about specifics , as compared to a
386 general use rezoning , with a conditional rezoning , a conditional district , we ' ve got to talk about the specifics . We ' re only
387 going to be allowed to do what is specifically approved .
388
389 Randy Marshall - Is this the last time that this comes before the planning board or if the rezoning takes place , then staff
390 handles the building approval process ?
391
392 Cy Stober- The latter. Should this be approved , by the Commissioners , at next month ' s public hearing , this will be a site
393 specific plan . The ordinance does allow us to make minor modifications , that accommodate field realities , but we cannot
394 deviate significantly from this site plan that is before you tonight . The use would be limited to a retail use . Say a library
395 wanted to go in there , or a health clinic , the entire project, even if it was the same footprint, would have to come back
396 before the planning board and the Commissioners for approval for any other use to occupy that space . But yes , all
397 building permits , all site plans for construction , would then be permitted by right, provided it was consistent with the site
398 plan before you and limited to the retail use .
399
400 Randy Marshall - Just to be clear then , the approval that the County Commissioners would eventually rule on would be
401 the last time there would be review or any point to comment on this project?
402
403 Cy Stober- That' s correct unless there is a significant deviation from both the use or the site plan .
404
405 Randy Marshall - Okay , then I have another question since we can talk about the business itself. One of the things that' s
406 striking to me is that you haven ' t justified this business in terms of what kind of sales tax impact it might have to the
407 citizens of Orange County . Is it going to make money? How much money do you think it' s going to make ? Clearly you
408 think it' s going to make money , or you wouldn 't be putting it there . Do you presume that most of the clientele is going to
409 be people who drive back and forth to Alamance County and stop there , therefore we are getting out of county
410 contributions to our tax base , or do you presume that in the case that was stated before , there ' s not enough population
411 or business within the local community to support the business ? I ' m just interested in a bit of the economic thinking about
412 putting this business there .
413
414 Bob Hornik- Certainly we hope and expect that we are going to be drawing traffic to and from Alamance County and from
415 the area . We hope and expect that we will make money .
416
417 Randy Marshall - There are no projections , formal or informal that you folks have done on this ?
418
419 Bob Hornik- Not that I ' m aware of. The Dollar General folks may have done some of that . It' s really not a zoning
420 question .
421
422 Randy Marshall - I understand but I was told that we could ask business questions so that' s what I ' m doing . I ' m trying to
423 get some sort of a feeling for how much of a commercial generator this is going to be for Orange County . Not just for that
424 community , but for Orange County . In other words , if it brings in tens of thousands of dollars in sales tax revenue , that
425 impacts every Orange County resident in terms of what we have to pay in potentially raised property taxes . If it doesn ' t
426 generate that much sales revenue , then it' s a wash , I don ' t know why we would consider it in terms of the economic
427 impact . I think that information is critical for us to consider . It' s also curious that that would be a main selling point for you
428 folks in wanting to put this business there , to say it' s going to be a a commercial tax generator for the county and to help
429 you folks to spread your tax burden out, not just for residential taxes but for commercially generated taxes as well . So ,
430 I ' m curious that it hasn 't been sold at all on that . I read all 30 of the letters that were sent to the planning board , nobody
431 spoke on that part of the topic , and I think it's an important one .
432
433 Bob Hornik- Right, everyone's been focusing on the land use aspects of it, not the economic impacts of it .
434
435 Randy Marshall - I think you missed an opportunity .
436
437 Bob Hornik- Yes , I understand what you are saying .
438
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439 Whitney Watson - If I could follow up on Randy and actually ask Brian a question , that is designated as an Economic
440 Activity Node , correct?
441
442 Brian Collie- It' s a Rural Community Activity Node .
443
444 Whitney Watson - Is there any history of that type of retail store drawing additional commercial activities around them to
445 enhance that node?
446
447 Brian Collie- As far as that question goes , I don ' t know if I can answer that, we don 't have the studies that lead to that .
448
449 Whitney Watson - What about suppressing additional development in that area because of the competition ?
450
451 Brian Collie- I can ' t answer that either .
452
453 Beth Bronson - There are studies out there if you start poking , but they are usually for more urban areas , not rural areas .
454
455 Cy Stober- If you look at the language in the comprehensive plan , it simply makes recommendations about what the
456 future land use should be in that area . It doesn 't really speak to competition between nonresidential uses , so we are
457 bound and limited by the guidance provided by the comprehensive plan .
458
459 Beth Bronson - Can you clarify to that point that the comprehensive plan does not necessarily specify NCCD or the NC 23
460 but they do specify to local commercial ?
461
462 Cy Stober- No , commercial . This was in the slide that Brian already had up . If you look at the last clause , " an appropriate
463 location for any of the following uses , the institutional uses then the final clauses , one or more commercial uses " that is
464 the guidance that is provided to us by our comprehensive plan . Imperfect as it may be , that is the guidance that staff has
465 in making its findings and I have in making my recommendation to you all .
466
467 Beth Bronson - I absolutely agree with you . Because this application falls under "one or more commercial uses " , I do want
468 to highlight the emphasis on " institutional uses " , in that sense of this rural community activity node , juxtaposed with the
469 existing commercial uses that are already in play , in that intersection , in that activity node . Not to say that there ' s any
470 question to that, but the fact that the NC2 is designated for the rural community activity node . . .
471
472 Cy Stober- It was neighborhood commercial versus LC- 1 which is local commercial , so they are applied appropriately
473 based upon their description , the buffers and what is in the ordinance about how they may be consistently integrated and
474 introduced into an activity node or an area of the county but yes . There' s no prescription in that NC 2 can only be in
475 these activity nodes or LC - 1 can only be in these that's not how that works .
476
477 Beth Bronson - So they overlap?
478
479 Cy Stober- Yes .
480
481 Beth Bronson - Agreed . We saw this at the last presentation for the rezoning too . It' s coming within this time frame
482 because it' s dissimilar. I think it' s important that the board and the community also know that the zoning application is
483 different which makes it dissimilar which may have already been stated . But I think it's worth underscoring that there 's no
484 longer a local commercial aspect to it . It is a neighborhood commercial ask like a conditional zoning request .
485
486 Cy Stober- Well , there was that question that was significant at the Planning Board meeting in August, regarding
487 consumption of the . . . there ' s an allocation of X number of acreage in each activity node and conditional zoning does not
488 impact that allocation , so there' s still available NC2 and LC- 1 acreage , that could be considered for future rezonings .
489
490 Beth Bronson- Thank you for that clarification .
491
492 Lamar Proctor- What is that allocation , for rural community activity node , do you know?
493
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
494 Cy Stober- I don ' t know .
495
496 Lamar Proctor- But there's a limitation ?
497
498 Cy Stober- There is , yes sir.
499
500 Lamar Proctor- Why?
501
502 Cy Stober= Some of it' s been consumed by the existing businesses that are there , but there is available acreage .
503
504 Perdita Holtz- It' s 10 acres for LC- 1 and 10 acres for NC - 2 , so 20 acres combined .
505
506 Lamar Proctor- 20 acres combined for that rural activity node .
507
508 Cy Stober- Some of that has been consumed by the existing businesses that are there , which is why the split-zoning
509 request came before you before .
510
511 Lamar Proctor- That' s to preserve the rural character of that area , right?
512
513 Perdita Holtz- It is , but you may recall that we also spoke to the fact that we require a greater area to be rezoned for
514 commercial use than was previously required . For instance , now we require the septic areas and the well area all be
515 zoned commercial because it is serving the commercial use . One of the things that needs to be looked at is whether 10
516 acres is an appropriate amount given that one use can potentially take all the 10 acres .
517
518 Lamar Proctor- Right , also because conditional districts like this are exempted from the limitations on the rural
519 community activity nodes , what you could see happen is you could see multiple conditional districts being approved in a
520 rural area , thereby bypassing that limitation , thereby destroying the rural character of that particular community .
521
522 Cy Stober- You could have multiple non - residential conditional requests in an activity node .
523
524 Lamar Proctor- Right , so that' s tricky and that' s something we should definitely be looking at in the separate issue of the
525 comprehensive land use plan and the UDO . What you ' re going to see is exactly this , that developers will just apply for a
526 conditional district, and you ' ll end up with 10- 20 conditional districts bypassing what the comprehensive land use plan
527 had envisioned in terms of preserving the rural character of a particular community .
528
529 Cy Stober- I think it deserves further exploration , yes .
530
531 Charity Kirk- That' s a very good point, thank you .
532
533 Statler Gilfillen - I assume that in this packet, the images of what they are proposing the building will be is consistent with
534 what is planned to be built . Buried in the back of the packet, there is a letter from Peter Sandbeck who is in charge of the
535 historic commission on behalf of Orange County . I am a past member, I am a licensed architect, I have some expertise in
536 preservation . I think his letter was very well written . In that letter, I would like to comment if I could and maybe get a
537 comment back on this because we are talking about a small community and the fabric of the community . The building
538 itself and the store may service more people passing through than the people that live there . As such , it may have a
539 negative impact on the community if you follow what Peter Sandbeck is saying . I ' d like some comment on this . Quoting "
540 Any proposed project that has a potential to adversely affect a designated Historic landmark is subject to a higher level
541 of review with the goal of working with the property developers to find ways to reduce or eliminate any potential negative
542 visual or physical impact on a landmark property . " He goes on to say in the next paragraph "the proposed new building
543 completely ignores and turns its back toward the historic school as well as toward many motorists that will pass the site
544 each day . This is not an acceptable treatment in such close proximity to this significant landmark that has been
545 recognized by Orange County Historic Preservation Commission . " That tells me , as an architect involved in preservation ,
546 the impact of this building as an architectural statement and I appreciate the amount of work , time , and money that they
547 have spent in providing this proposal . But the impact of this design within this small community at this crossroads may be
548 very negative . Could somebody respond to that?
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
549
550 Taylor Perschau - This is how one of the conditions came about . " Number 4 Resource Protection Area : Recognizing that
551 the property is within a Resource Protection Area due to its proximity to the White Cross School , the north elevation of
552 the building towards NC Highway 54 , shall consist of the same treatment of cement fiber, lap siding , trim , crown , frieze ,
553 simulated windows , etc . as proposed for the front elevation in the submitted application ; "
554 That condition was added after Peter Sandbeck was allowed the opportunity to comment, so that was in response .
555
556 Charity Kirk- So did he comment on the addition ?
557
558 Taylor Perschau - I don ' t believe that we were able to get those materials back to him for further comment after the memo
559 was provided .
560
561 Statler Gilfillen - What you ' ve described there , I don ' t know that that' s compatible with what he ' s described , could be the
562 issue here . I just want to raise the question tonight .
563
564 Cy Stober- On that letter, which is on page 205 . . . on page 206 , the first paragraph , Mr. Sandbeck states "As a mitigation
565 strategy we recommend that the design treatment for the front elevation as shown on the sheet A2 , be continued around
566 the corner, and applied also to the north elevation . This should consist of the same treatment of cement fiber, lap siding ,
567 trim , crown , frieze , simulated windows . This modification to the building design will provide a significant visual
568 improvement to the elevation facing NC 54 and the historic school building . " I believe that condition was directly in
569 response and almost a pull quote from Mr. Sandbeck' s language .
570
571 Bob Hornik- After seeing that , we did extend the facade along the north side of the building in direct response to Mr .
572 Sandbeck ' s comment .
573
574 Charity Kirk- Could you touch on the size of the other retail establishments and the sizes of the parking lots in the area
575 and how this store compares to the sizes of the others ?
576
577 Bob Hornik- I ' m not sure about the size of the parking lots , I know that across Hwy 54 , 1 think the Artisan ' s Building that
578 we were just talking about is 8 , 000 square feet give or take . There ' s the other building that' s almost directly across Hwy
579 54 from this property where you have the pole barn building , which is significantly less aesthetically pleasing to the
580 historic school than our site would be but that pole barn is about 7 , 700 square feet, the building itself.
581
582 Charity Kirk- Is that a retail establishment?
583
584 Bob Hornik- It' s just what' s across the street, I didn ' t know you were talking about just retail establishments .
585
586 Charity Kirk- I was asking about retail establishments .
587
588 Bob Hornik- I know the gas station across White Cross Road is , I want to say , 1 , 500 square feet roughly . I looked at all
589 those this afternoon and the Bravo Market is about double that, I think . It' s 2 , 500 or something like that .
590
591 Charity Kirk- So a 10 , 000 square feet retail building would match some other buildings in the area but not necessarily
592 other retail stores?
593
594 Bob Hornik- I think that' s an accurate statement, yes .
595
596 Beth Bronson - I have a question for the applicant. Is anyone here from Kimley Horn ?
597
598 Bob Hornik- The traffic engineer? There ' s nobody here from there tonight .
599
600 Beth Bronson - Is anybody here to speak to the traffic impact analysis that was performed on that intersection ?
601
602 Bob Hornik- I ' ll do the best I can with it, I ' ve reviewed it .
603
Approved 4- 5 - 23
604 Beth Bronson - My question is about the traffic impact analysis that was performed on that intersection , specifically for the
605 conditional zoning application . With that conditional zoning application , they performed a traffic impact analysis that
606 observed both the intersection of Hwy 54 going both east and west, and then White Cross coming north and turning east
607 or west . From White Cross , that' s the right towards Carrboro or the left towards Graham and Alamance County . White
608 Cross is considered a minor road , it' s rural , however there are few roads that come off of the Greensboro highway to
609 Hwy 54 . White Cross is therefore a main artery from the Greensboro highway to Hwy 54 . My question is that the level of
610 service was rated an A , but it was unclear what the projected traffic was going to look like in 2024 .
611
612 Bob Hornik- For which section of road ?
613
614 Beth Bronson - One for the parcel itself, so one for the business itself . . . the numbers that they generated for the projected
615 traffic .
616
617 Bob Hornik- I know there was a trip generation which I want to say was 31 in the AM peak hour and 83 in the PM peak
618 hour.
619
620 Beth Bronson - It looked like the existing characteristics were listed as a level of service A . If you actually look at the level
621 of service A , it describes free-flowing operations .
622
623 Bob Hornik- Like in school , an A is pretty good .
624
625 Beth Bronson- So there is no need for any kind of consideration because there ' s no stopping of traffic . When I ' m looking
626 at the existing traffic in that area , actually turning left or right off that road onto Hwy 54 or turning left off of 54 onto that
627 road is not necessarily represented in this traffic impact analysis so I wanted to know if anyone could speak to the
628 conditions under which they did the observation ? I know that there is an algorithm in their appendix but it' s very
629 confusing so I didn ' t know if anyone could describe that?
630
631 Bob Hornik- I can ' t really speak to that . I know that the TIA was scoped before it was done , it was reviewed by NCDOT ,
632 and DeAngelo reviewed it and said it was satisfactory to NCDOT . We made the plan modification that NCDOT asked us
633 to make with the right turn lane .
634
635 Beth Bronson - So , the right turn lane off of 54 onto White Cross , was not part of the plan . The site plan of the applicant
636 specifies 100 feet, right turn lane , off of . . .
637
638 Bob Hornik- White Cross into the parking lot .
639
640 Beth Bronson - The easement , of the highway , so that 100 feet would include some of what the DOT 's easement exists
641 already .
642
643 Bob Hornik- I think it' s probably all the NC DOT right of way . If it's not all , then it' s a good part of it is , the right turn lane .
644
645 Beth Bronson - Would that business also have a right of way because it was zoned originally as a business?
646
647 Bob Hornik- I ' m confused by that question .
648
649 Beth Bronson - It' s probably not significant . I think my question has to do with the fact that what the traffic analysis has
650 recommended is a 100 foot, right turn lane off of White Cross . However, there' s and maybe this is just my perception of
651 measurement , but there' s not even 100 feet of a right turn lane off at 54 into White Cross . So , what you ' re asking is that
652 people coming down 54 , eastbound are going to have to , if they , this projected 31 AM , and 83 PM peak . . .
653
654 Bob Hornik- They would have to make a right and then make a right .
655
656 Beth Bronson - Yes , they would have to make a right and then make a right, or they have to make a left and then make a
657 left . To me it seems like those numbers are combined . It looks like total daily .
658
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
659 Bob Hornik- I can 't answer what I understand your question to be . I wish I could .
660
661 Beth Bronson . Yeah , I think my question is that, was this impact analysis done using 2021 numbers ? If so , then they
662 were not necessarily an accurate description of how many commuters during AM and PM peak hours were actually
663 occurring , so my concern is that it' s not actually representative of the impact on the neighborhood traffic that it' s going to
664 have .
665
666 Bob Hornik- All I can tell you is that the professionals who did the study and the professionals who reviewed the study ,
667 said it was good .
668
669 Beth Bronson . I appreciate that input .
670
671 Brent Purdum - DOT reviewed the traffic analysis study . When they did the traffic analysis study off the 2021 numbers ,
672 they submitted it, then DOT , takes those numbers and does their research . Then the DOT were the ones that said , "Yes ,
673 you know traffic analysis study still meets today's numbers . What we need to do is put one right turn lane on White Cross
674 Road leading to the site and that was it .
675
676 Beth Bronson - You don ' t have an ingress on 54 , correct?
677
678 Brent Purdum - Correct .
679
680 Beth Bronson - Part of the traffic analysis was that you could not have an ingress on 54 because that would impact the
681 traffic , correct?
682
683 Brent Purdum - All of that was researched , all of that was included in their study .
684
685 Beth Bronson - I absolutely agree with that assessment, that you couldn ' t have a right- hand turn lane on 54 . I ' m not
686 questioning their professionalism or their aptitude , not at all . I am not an expert , I ' m just a resident who has been in this
687 area for a very long time . I ' ve seen that intersection and I ' ve seen what happens to people trying to turn left to White
688 Cross going westbound . I ' ve seen how traffic accordions for eastbound traffic that is coming down 54 . During peak
689 hours , there can be an issue there . The fact that no one actually went out to this spot to do this impact analysis . They
690 just used existing numbers , correct?
691
692 Bob Hornik- I can 't tell you whether Kimley Horn went out there and sat there and did a traffic count . I assume that they
693 did .
694
695 Brent Purdum - They go out to that intersection , they sit out there , and they have car counters . It's not just that
696 intersection they' ll look down the roads , they will look all over . They are not just looking at a chart . They are going to that
697 site , that intersection to collect all their data . That' s part of their data collection is physically being at the site .
698
699 Beth Bronson - I was trying to find , in the report, what days they were there . All I can see is that they are basing it on
700 2021 numbers , which would indicate that they were using an average that was already aggregated from a previous
701 report that was similar enough .
702
703 Brent Purdum - During the time that we went from the regular rezoning to this conditional rezoning , that' s when they were
704 onsite .
705
706 Beth Bronson . Thank you , I appreciate that .
707
708 Adam Beeman . Any other questions or can we open it up to public comment?
709
710 David Blankfard - What does staff think about the reduction in the number of parking spaces? Do you think that' s
711 adequate?
712
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
713 Brian Collie- Towards that question referring to the trip generation numbers , we feel that 54 spaces there per the UDO is
714 overkill . We feel that any paved surface that' s not needed there is better.
715
716 Diantha Rau - I just want to speak to the character of our rural community which was mentioned by several folks here .
717 Facades and aesthetically pleasing buildings are one thing , but the character of our community is its people and our
718 small businesses that we have there . We have Mom and Pop businesses which will be impacted , I believe , very
719 negatively by a national chain coming in and setting up shop on that corner . We have a local market that uses local
720 meats and local dairy products . We have a restaurant; the Fiesta Grill and we have artisans and woodworkers in the
721 community . We also have our gas stations which are also convenience marts . A Dollar General store would be an affront
722 to the character of our community I believe . I strongly encourage your denial of this applicant in terms of
723 recommendations .
724
725 Charity Kirk- Can I touch on something ? It' s become clear to me that we are not supposed to be disallowing a Dollar
726 General , we are supposed to be disallowing a retail establishment here . So , the community , I ' m very clear that you don ' t
727 want a Dollar General but to help me , I would be very interested why you don ' t want a retail establishment of this size on
728 that corner. We ' ve been told that we cannot disallow a Dollar General because that' s discriminatory and the North
729 Carolina ' s statutes don ' t allow that . So , if you could speak in a broader sense about the size of the establishment , or
730 something else , that would be helpful to me to help make my decision .
731
732 Diantha Rau - Sure , well , any type of a retail store , particularly a national one , I don ' t know what other ones would be on
733 the table , a Walgreens or anything like that, interferes with the Mom and Pop businesses that we have in the area . We
734 rely on them , they rely on our business , and they could be put out of business by a retail store coming in there . That' s my
735 concern .
736
737 Sadie Rapp- I ' m here on behalf of preserve Rural Orange . Based on the applicant' s presentation , at the neighborhood
738 information meeting , I believe that they seem to have misunderstood our core concerns . They characterize the
739 communities protest as being largely about the aesthetics of the building , the using up of limited commercial zoning , and
740 the vagueness of the proposal . I would like to recognize their effort to assuage these concerns , but it doesn 't change the
741 basic nature of the project . Preserving your own character, not just about aesthetics , but it' s also about values . The
742 purpose of conditional zoning is to allow an exception to existing zoning to meet a distinct need of the community . To pull
743 from the language of the County' s unified development ordinance ; The exception comes with a high standard to ensure
744 compatibility and harmony with the surrounding areas and take applicable regulations to an equivalent or higher degree
745 when it comes to things like improved level of amenities , creative design , and a better environment . These standards
746 and expectations are lofty , we have data from the Institute for local self- reliance , as well as Consumer Reports , that
747 shows that dollar store proliferation is associated with a hollowing out of the local business economy . They use their
748 purchasing power to put any competitor out of business , including those that currently provide significant jobs , carry local
749 products , meaningfully contribute to the economic well - being of the area , and also serve our needs in a dynamic and
750 responsive way . A dollar store which siphons profits from our neighborhood and out-of-state has none of these qualities .
751 It's important to say that we are not opposed to economic development in general , but we deserve better than this
752 project . I simply cannot see how the term " Good civic design " could suit this project that is so grossly redundant, with the
753 many dollar stores in an 8 - mile radius , and also create such conflict with the businesses in its orbit . On the basis of the
754 guidelines set forth in the UDO , I believe that the Board has a responsibility to vote against approving conditional zoning
755 as it is in direct conflict with the requirement that development be , as the UDO states , compatible and harmonious with
756 White Cross , thank you .
757
758 Amanda Griffin - There were a lot of questions around what businesses exist and the size of the buildings that are there
759 right now . This is my neighborhood , and I can speak very clearly to any of those questions that I heard some of you have
760 earlier . I sent an email , I don ' t know if you have access to that right now , but I emailed the planning board with a map
761 that has descriptions of all the local businesses and their sizes . Bravos Market is 2 , 700 square feet and that' s our largest
762 retailer right now . Between that and the two convenience stores , White Cross Mart which is directly across from the
763 proposed lot is 1 , 680 square feet and the 76 Gas Station is 2 , 700 square feet with a tire repair shop , so this proposal of
764 a 10 , 640 square foot retailer is grossly disproportionate to the retail size that we have right now, and I think it' s totally
765 unnecessary . I feel like our retail needs are already met with what we have in the community . There have also been
766 some rude comments about the buildings directly across the street, about the HVAC service , that they are big ugly metal
767 buildings , but I think that as another resident said earlier, aesthetic concerns are part of it but what' s inside is what really
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
768 matters , and that HVAC company has been here for 30 years or something . They are locally owned and run by a family ,
769 they keep their money local . No one is complaining about those buildings . Also , the size of them , the largest building is a
770 warehouse which is 4 , 200 square feet, they have an office which is 2 , 500 square feet, so nowhere near the parking
771 requirements that a retailer would bring . The historic White Cross school that was mentioned is 7 , 000 square feet and it
772 is a local artist' s studio space with 4 - 6 commercial tenants . It' s not retail , it' s not open to the public , it doesn ' t have a
773 huge footprint on our community , but it does bring in culture and art and local businesses and it' s a huge boon to our
774 area . The largest building in the area is 8 , 800 square feet and that' s the local artist' s cooperative which has 12 local
775 artists operating in it . It' s also not a retail building , it doesn ' t have a ton of parking , it' s low impact on the neighborhood
776 but again it' s also bringing jobs and high - quality workers to our area . It really serves the White Cross community
777 aesthetic of a thriving , cultural crossroads . I also wanted to speak briefly to the comprehensive plan since we can ' t speak
778 directly about the type of retail . . . (timer went off) I ' ll let others speak to that . Thank you for your time .
779
780 John Griffin - Good evening . For centuries , rural Orange County , NC has maintained an economy of home local trade and
781 agricultural self- reliance , while state and nationwide economic forces lured neighboring counties to invest in major
782 commercial and industrial infrastructures , generations of Orange County residents kept corporate land development out
783 of their forests , watersheds , and county crossroads . Today , rural Orange County is a sanctuary from the industrial and
784 suburban sprawl of the Triangle and Triad . The preservation of home and land is unique here . That's the social and
785 economic character of Orange County . I believe these ideals are enshrined in the County Is 2030 Comprehensive Plan .
786 The Board voted down an application almost identical to this one last fall . The County has rejected other rural dollar
787 stores . In fact, there are no dollar stores within the rural boundary of Orange County that I ' m aware of. This would be the
788 first . While the neighboring counties are saturated with dollar stores at their rural crossroads and boundaries . Approval
789 sets a sad precedent for economic development under the comprehensive plan . Southern Orange County at White
790 Cross , like other economic development nodes is well served by locally owned retailers . A dollar store would seek to
791 disrupt and outcompete and ultimately shutter them and preclude future local businesses from operating there . A ton of
792 journalism and legislation all over the US has examined and responded to the sprawling social and economic costs of
793 corporate box retail like Dollar General to families and local governments . Bottom pay , understaffing , non - nutritious
794 foods , increased opportunity for armed robbery, and an overall deterioration of local economic and social well - being .
795 implore Orange County to again deny this application in the spirit of Rural Orange Preservation and the values for
796 commercial development set forth in the comprehensive plan . Vote again against predatory low quality , and low paying
797 chain retail in Orange County , thank you .
798
799 Jesus Bravo- Thank you , my name is Jesus Bravo and I own Fiestas Grill and Bravo ' s Market . I think when I started the
800 Bravo ' s Market , started thinking that community needs . It' s been over 3 years since we started . I think definitely its going
801 to have a bad impact on my business and not only on my business , but on the community , and also on the traffic . The
802 Fiesta Grill , too of course . We have a hard time making a left turn into Fiesta Grill already . Everybody else already talked
803 about the bad impact this is going to have in our community , and of course , it' s going to have a bad impact on Bravo ' s
804 Market . Thank you very much .
805
806 Dr. Anndal Narayanan - Members of the board , thank you for this opportunity for input tonight . My name is Andal
807 Narayanan and I ' m here on behalf of 5 neighbors in White Cross , who were not able to be here tonight, but all of whom
808 share my opinion on this matter . I live in White Cross , 8 minutes from the parcel in question . I ' m here to also ask you to
809 refuse Glandon Forest Equity' s rezoning request . A big box retail establishment of this size will lower property values for
810 surrounding homeowners , it will increase traffic , it will disrupt the calm and quiet that we all value in the area . And , as
811 you as you just heard it will hurt the small businesses that are part of what make White Cross such a special place to
812 live . It' s not needed in White Cross , this type of establishment . White Cross is not a food desert by any means . I rely on
813 Bravo ' s market, as part of my weekly shopping . It offers high quality dry goods , dairy , meat, and fresh produce . A lot of
814 this is , locally produced , and I really value that. I value keeping my dollars in the area . There are also several big box
815 dollar stores and grocery stores within a few miles driving distance in either direction . Finally , I think this is also
816 unnecessary , because if we if we really need to buy cheap stuff that' s made in China from a predatory company , we can ,
817 and already do that, from Amazon . Thank you for your attention to the overwhelming community opposition to this
818 rezoning request .
819
820 Tony Blake- I didn 't originally plan to speak , but I heard some stuff in here that kind of bothered me and I wanted to
821 approach it from a little bit of a different tact . I ' m sort of conservative property rights guy and I ' m all for diversifying the tax
Approved 4- 5 - 23
822 base . But what I ' m hearing here as pointed out, 160 D holds the planning boards to the comprehensive plan not the UDO
823 and when I read the comprehensive plan , there' s no mention of conditional zoning . In fact, if you look at Appendix D ,
824 which is the 1981 Appendix , Appendix 5 . 4 and 6 . 8 they' re the only mentions of White Cross at all and they have a zoning
825 category BH2 , which doesn 't appear in the UDO anymore . I strongly urge you to wait on this until you get a
826 comprehensive plan that covers this kind of conditional zoning , and really makes a definition of what this node , should
827 be . I ' m all over, trying to participate in that discussion , but I think this is just kind of an ad hoc proposal here that really is
828 a basis for rejection , even though I as I said , I support property rights and I support tax diversification . Thank you .
829
830 George Barnes - Thank you for allowing me a couple of minutes to speak . I ' m George Barnes with Glandon Forest
831 Equity . I ' m sure I ' m the least popular person in this room , but I wanted to speak to Mister Marshall , one question you
832 had , and then also just address a couple of the other points . There' s been a lot of comment on the proposed use node
833 consideration on the proposed use being given to the local community and I do appreciate and respect all of the
834 community members concerns , I do . I will say that a lot of study and market analysis did go into this . Not by me , because
835 I ' m not privy to that , but by the intended user and they have the means to track where their dollars and their customer
836 dollars are being spent and where it' s coming from and where are the people that own those cards live . The reason they
837 wanted to be here , is because in their mind , it better serves the needs of the community and their customer base . I 've
838 also heard comments on "Why does it need to be here , there's one 5 miles down the road to the east , there' s one 7 miles
839 down to the road to the West, " that might be true , but we can't assume that those stores will stay there , and we don 't
840 know what the intended users ' plans are for those stores . I don 't want to get hung up on how a certain store might look in
841 a certain area , because this is a different store . It is going to be 10 , 640 square feet, but it will have a lot of coolers for
842 fresh foods in there , and it' s a little something different than what I ' ve been involved with before with this intended user .
843
844 Beth Bronson- Were you involved with employing the traffic impact analysis ?
845
846 George Barnes- Indirectly .
847
848 Beth Bronson - I just wanted to clarify that, since the author of the report is not here to speak on it, and the
849 recommendations that were made were kind of generic , that there was only one day that the author of the report was
850 actually onsite to get the average . In doing so , do you know the company that you employed , do they do traffic analysis
851 in the county , do they normally do it in a rural area?
852
853 George Barnes- That' s a really good question and I appreciate it . We did employ them , and it was a requirement and we
854 have employed them throughout the state with other projects . This is the standard way of doing traffic impact analysis .
855 The firm ' s name was on the County' s list of firms that we could work with , it' s a very reputable firm . They take historic
856 data , current data , date from being on the site into consideration in coming up with that report . Then they share that with
857 the county and also NCDOT .
858
859 Beth Bronson - So you are aware that the projected traffic means that it would be to the point at which it would be prudent
860 for the Department of Transportation to assess for a traffic light or assess for some kind of intervention to help alleviate
861 the traffic that's being created and that' s within one year of right now . I ' m trying to find any kind of discussion that was
862 had with the developers about any kind of proactive measures or anticipation of. . . .
863
864 Charity Kirk- Can I clarify? You feel like the dollar store going in is going to affect traffic so much so that the DOT is going
865 to have to do something and that it was not addressed in the study?
866
867 Beth Bronson - The traffic is going to continue to increase regardless of whether or not there is a retail space there . Does
868 this report sufficiently reflect that? I think that is to be determined because there's only one day of analysis of data
869 collection that was performed . But there is an expected projection of already increasing traffic and so , by adding the
870 retail center, you are creating additional safety concerns that are outlined in the County' s assessment . I just wondered if
871 there was any kind of response that you guys had for the county to specifically address that?
872
873 George Barnes. We addressed all the concerns that came our way . I can say that the intent is to provide a closer to
874 home shopping option for the customer base and again , they know where their customers are , to offer general
875 merchandise , American made , consumable items . As it relates to DOT , they had their report and reviewed it, and we are
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
876 accustomed to doing what DOT requires us to do . If they said we needed to install a turn lane or a stoplight, we ' d have to
877 do that . All that was required of us was to . . . l know you brought up the idea of the right turn lane a couple of times , it' s not
878 on 54 , 1 just wanted to be clear, it' s on White Cross Rd . , for the stacking , so the cars don ' t stack up into the highway .
879
880 Beth Bronson - To be clear, there ' s already a right- hand turn lane on 54 to get into White Cross . . .
881
882 George Barnes- Right .
883
884 Beth Bronson - So you would be going from one right hand turn lane to a right- hand turn lane to get into the
885 establishment?
886
887 George Barnes- Yes .
888
889 Beth Bronson - I think I ' m clarifying that the right- hand turn lane that exists already on 54 is not even 100 feet . So , the
890 one that' s being required for the retail space that needs 34 parking spots versus the highway that services over 2 , 000
891 cars at peak , only has a 50400t right hand turn lane .
892
893 Charity Kirk- What would you suggest? Do you have a suggestion ?
894
895 Beth Bronson - To the point of the previous public comment of understanding better what our comprehensive plan is
896 going to be for how 54 is going to be developed . How the intersection for a rural activity node is going to be developed . 1
897 have issues with the existing assessment of what is necessary and what the requirements are I think , Yeah , does that
898 make sense ?
899
900 Charity Kirk- You ' re suggesting to table this , until 54 is reviewed or are you suggesting they add a stoplight?
901
902 Delores Bailey- Point of order, did we finish the public comments ?
903 Overlapping conversations
904
905 Adam Beeman - He was the last person to speak .
906 Overlapping conversations- loud murmurs from the audience .
907 Beth Bronson - I apologize , I wanted to make sure that I was asking the applicant a question . . .
908 Overlapping conversations
909
910 John Cecil - I have been a resident of White Cross for 52 years . I grew up there , it' s my home , I ' m not against
911 development, I feel like the retail establishment that is being planned there is going to service a totally different
912 demographic of our community than what is existing and being served by Bravo ' s Market . I shop at Bravo ' s Market, I will
913 continue to shop at Bravo' s Market for those fresh goods . I haven ' t been in a retail establishment like the one that' s
914 being planned for there , that sells those types of retail goods . Will it take some away from some of the convenience
915 stores? I ' m certain it will . From the local establishment such as Bravo' s Market , it' s two totally different demographics
916 that it' s going to serve .
917
918 Charity Kirk- So are you for it or against it?
919
920 John Cecil - I am for rezoning for a retail establishment .
921
922 Susan Walser- Hi I ' m Susan Walser and I too have concerns about the traffic . I use the stoplight at Dodson ' s Crossroads
923 on 54 all the time and it' s an uncomfortable situation . I don 't go into that intersection even though I have a green light,
924 because people disobey the red light on 54 . Twice , people have blown through the red light when I ' ve gotten partially into
925 that intersection . So , 54 is not a safe road and with the increased traffic , that' s coming from between Chapel Hill and
926 Alamance County all the time , it' s a concern . I ' m concerned if I go to Fiesta Grill and turn left to go back home if it' s
927 during rush hour . It can take an awful long time to get out of there with people coming and going and if people are going
928 to turn left out of White Cross to go back west when through with their shopping at a retail establishment, I can 't imagine
929 the backup of traffic that can happen . If they don 't have a reasonable way to turn , I think there needs to be a stop light at
930 White Cross . If a retail establishment is going to get approved there is going to be one needed , otherwise , I think it' s
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
931 going to be dangerous . There are still traffic accidents at Dodson ' s Crossroads even with a light there because of the
932 traffic flow . The other concerns that I have , if we' re going to get a national retailer in that space , is that national retailer
933 going to help the community and pay a living wage ? It seems like if we' re going to have that, a living wage is going to be
934 needed . Another question is , is the County , giving the retailer any kind of tax incentives to be there . I think . this would be
935 a concern . And we know that you don 't want to hear this , but over the course of the past few weeks when people hear
936 about the dollar store , they complain about what' s happening in Carrboro with the dollar store . They can 't keep their store
937 open . They don 't pay their employees enough to keep the doors open . The doors are always locked , They can 't keep the
938 doors open when they stock their shelves . If you look at next door neighbor, there ' s complaints about locking the doors
939 of that store , all the time . I have a friend who , several times , a month , she goes through dumpsters of the several dollar
940 stores in the county and she finds totally intact containers of goods that they throw away because they don 't have
941 enough space or whatever on their shelves and she pulls them and she gives it to women with children and she gives
942 them to churches and she also sells them in her garage sales too . Do we want something in our community that can 't
943 handle their inventory , so they add it to our landfill ?
944 Deanna Smith - Hi everyone , I ' m Deanna Smith . I live off of White Cross road . I appreciate your questions and insights .
945 so far that you all have asked in regard to this matter. From what I 've heard tonight , it's kind of opened my eyes to the
946 whole process of this and overall , I can say that I ' m mixed . I feel like Mr. Davis has the right as a taxpayer and a
947 landowner to do what he wants with his property, and I support his right to do what he feels is best for his own needs . At
948 the same time , I have a piece of property on White Cross Road that eventually , I would like to rezone and have a healing
949 center on , and if I ever make it that far in the process of planning and developing , I hope that I have some grace and
950 consideration from the community like y' all are giving him at this time . But I do have concerns for the impact on the
951 community and especially to Bravo ' s Market . Some of the things that haven 't, fully been said is their canned goods and
952 household staples , in addition to the local foods , they talked about, would take an impact from a retail store going in next
953 to them and competing with them . And they are a local member of the community . Another concern that I have that was
954 raised just because of Mr . Davis ' s comment that others have tried to purchase that property , but they haven 't been able
955 to meet the regulations and the guidelines . What are the hindrances to small businesses and other local people trying to
956 get that piece of property? What can we do as a community to try to help that out , and what can we do as a board that
957 might be able to help influence us to be able to get those other people that we do want in the community there instead of
958 a national chain store ? Finally , to piggyback on some of, I believe it was Miss Knapp ' s comments about the guidelines of
959 being compatible and harmonious with the community, there were some comments made basically knocking the look of
960 the surrounding buildings and steel buildings . That are the businesses of local hard -working members of the community
961 and in the vicinity of the place that they' re trying to get in that area and so to me , that doesn 't sound very harmonious to
962 the existing members of the community , they' re trying to work with . You know at the end of the day, it' s a Dollar General
963 that they' re trying to put in , not a Tiffany' s , so I don 't care what facade they put on it . The comments making it sound like
964 they are better than what' s already there in the community, are offensive and not very appreciated , so as a community
965 member, I would ask that you vote no for the rezoning of the property at this time .
966
967 Statler Gilfillen - Can I see a show of hands , how many people are against this project? Could you raise your hands ? How
968 many are undecided ? How many are in favor?
969
970 Kevin Reese. I am a 20 year resident of White Cross , born in Orange County . My son went to the Our House Preschool
971 that was located in the historic White Cross School . The economic heart of the community is Fiesta Grill and Bravo ' s
972 Market. A lot of us think of Mr . Bravo as the Mayor of White Cross . Whatever retail establishment that goes in there , is
973 going to harm those businesses whether it' s upscale or not . We don ' t want it and we don ' t need it .
974
975 Beth Bronson - I would like to ask Mr . Davis a question before the public hearing closes . Mr . Davis , when you purchased
976 the property in 1975 , you were not subject to any kind of zoning conditions , because they did not exist?
977
978 Vernon Davis. The zoning has changed several times since that time . It' s all for the good . Used to , it was more lenient .
979 It' s a little stricter now but it' s gotten so strict that it' s hard to meet all the regulations . I had been approached about
980 people buying but they couldn 't meet all the criteria . This person was able to meet all the rules and regulations that the
981 county imposed on them .
982
983 Beth Bronson - They had the facilities and the resources to meet all those .
984
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
985 Vernon Davis- When I first got the property , it was just on a quarter of an acre , and it had no bathroom . When they
986 moved the building back , they took the privy , and it was done away with . I could never get septic for the building , so 1
987 had to go across the street . I was able to purchase more property and get a permit for a septic system . There was an
988 antique store there , they sold mattresses there at one time . I didn ' t realize when I purchased the property from the
989 Masonic Lodge , that it was going to create this many problems .
990
991 Beth Bronson - How could you know? The zoning did not exist at the time you made that purchase . Thank you very much
992 for clarifying .
993
994 Taylor Perschau - This is open for further planning board deliberation , of course , but I did want to close out the
995 presentation portion to highlight what staff analysis determined with the application , how the site-specific plan and the
996 conditions attached to this application align with the comprehensive plan , and as a reminder, this is from the planning
997 staff. This is also in coordination with all of our interagency review partners that have looked at this , so the determination
998 is that the proposal is consistent with the allowed zoning districts for the comprehensive plans ' rural community activity
999 node . You 've seen this definition before , but I think it' s worth repeating that the rural community activity node is defined
1000 as land designated in the comprehensive plan that' s focused on designated road intersections , which serve as a notable
1001 crossroads first surrounding rural community and is an appropriate location for any of the following : church , fire stations ,
1002 small post office , school , or other similar institutional uses , and one or more commercial uses . So , we' ll bring it back to
1003 y' all now . You ' ve had the opportunity to hear from the applicant, staff, and the public . You know it' s still open for review
1004 and discussion amongst the board and then when you feel ready , it' s time for a recommendation .
1005
1006 Randy Marshall - These commercial activity nodes were placed on the map in Orange County to try to help generate
1007 taxable income other than residential property taxes . Orange County has done a particularly poor job of actually
1008 attracting and continuing to hold on to commercial activities . For those of you who are too young to remember, there was
1009 a very thriving Lowes store where Whole Foods is now . They wanted to expand , and Chapel Hill wouldn ' t let them
1010 expand , so they went across the bridge , and they've got a nice Lowes that generates lots of tax money for Durham
loll County . Mayor Ellie Kinnaird of Carrboro worked very hard to try to get Walmart to put a store in the Carrboro Plaza
1012 Shopping Center . She was unsuccessful . Wal Mart went across the line into Chatham County , where Walmart is making
1013 a lot of money for Chatham County . We continue to miss opportunities , and this may not be one , but we continue to miss
1014 opportunities where we could help relieve some of the pressure on property taxes . It' s not just property taxes , the houses
1015 are too expensive . People who can 't live here have to drive out to Chatham County , out to Alamance County , that' s why
1016 the roads are so busy . All of these people can 't afford to live here . They can 't afford to pay rent here and a dollar store
1017 might be attractive to them because those are the places that these people , these commuters can shop . I don 't think this
1018 business is designed or put into place in White Cross to serve the community . As such , regardless of what they say , I
1019 think it' s put there to try to capture commuter traffic going back and forth . The commuters are people who patronize
1020 these stores because they have prices that they can afford and we' re never going to get any relief from property taxes or
1021 the cost of housing if we keep turning down commercial activities . You have to start somewhere , and we should have
1022 started 50 years ago . You know it's just troubling to me that even long term people who live in Chapel Hill and Carrboro ,
1023 especially can 't afford to live there anymore because the taxes go up because there's no other source of income that's
1024 substantial that can support the Orange County schools , other activities that we have in Orange County from just
1025 property taxes , the only way you could improve that is to raise property taxes . I ' m not saying that this is going to
1026 generate much in terms of the tax base , but at some point, you ' ve got to start somewhere . I won ' t be on the board in the
1027 future but all of the projects , whether it' s Bucky' s or one of the other places that we ' ve talked about that could have
1028 generated lots of tax income for Orange County to relieve their property tax burden on our citizens are always turned
1029 down because the people don 't want it next to them , and I can 't blame them . That' s natural , who wants a business , or
1030 industrial complex next to you . But if you don 't start somewhere , in these areas , which the commissioners in Orange
1031 County have designated for these purposes , we ' re never going to get the diversified tax base that we need to try to hold
1032 these other costs accountable .
1033
1034 Lamar Proctor- With all due respect , I would somewhat disagree in that I think that Chapel Hill and Carrboro are growing
1035 phenomenally fast and are having a renaissance of commercial activity . As one of the speakers said , one of the most
1036 appealing parts of Orange County is that it has been able to preserve its rural county character and its natural
1037 surroundings by effectively preventing urban sprawl , box stores , and impervious surface that seem to crawl across other
1038 counties and destroy the rural character and the bucolic and peaceful nature of it . My biggest concern with this is in
1039 hearing from the residents is that changing the zoning from AR in an NC - 2 to a Non residential conditional district within
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
1040 the rural community activity node of White Cross is inconsistent with the comprehensive land use plan because you are
1041 essentially bypassing commercial space limitations and this project proposes having an over 10 , 000 square foot retail
1042 space that' s magnitudes larger than the other commercial establishments that have existed there for a long time . So ,
1043 think that this is inconsistent with the comprehensive land use plan because of that reason , I ' m concerned that it
1044 bypasses and subverts the limitations on commercial uses in the rural activity node , that it' s also inconsistent with the
1045 resource protection area of the White Cross School and that, as Ms . Bronson pointed out, that it appears that the traffic
1046 impact study may be insufficient, given the level of traffic that may be anticipated and the timing of that study that was
1047 done during the pandemic when we know that a lot of vehicular traffic was limited .
1048 1 would move to not recommend that this zoning change be approved to the Orange County Commissioners based on
1049 those reasons .
1050
1051 Randy Marshall - Don ' t we have to have a motion to approve and then vote it up or down ?
1052
1053 Delores Bailey- I have a comment before we vote .
1054 Bob Hornik- Had a correction concerning the traffic study. He said the study was done in November 2022, not during the
1055 pandemic.
1056
1057 David Blankfard - The study said that if they didn ' t do anything it would be just as bad as if they did do something .
1058
1059 Beth Bronson . Correct .
1060
1061 David Blankfard - So it' s not as if because we' re building this , it' s going to get worse , it' s going to get, worse naturally
1062 because people are moving more and driving more between Alamance and Carrboro .
1063
1064 Lamar Proctor- I withdraw the statement on traffic . My concerns about its inconsistency with the comprehensive land use
1065 plan and the rural community activity node are the same .
1066
1067 Randy Marshall. I ' m happy to make a motion and then people can vote the way they want to . I don 't think you can make
1068 the motion in the negative . You have to make the motion and then vote it down if you don ' t agree with it .
1069
1070 Delores Bailey- There are a couple of pieced that I heard in the public comment about this project, specifically the words
1071 that hit me were ; for conditional zoning that we' re looking for, for the change of this to meet a distinct need of the
1072 community, a good civic design and compatible , and harmonious with what we are trying to do for this area . While
1073 agree that we do need more commercial projects , when I listen to the person from the public describe the sizes of the
1074 other commercial properties that are out there in this area , this seems tremendously out of scale with what we' ve got
1075 there . The value of rural preservation is important to me and so I in my zoning purview as the applicant kept reminding
1076 us that this is about a zoning piece , zoning does require us to look at this as it meets a distinct need of the community
1077 and good civic design , and I have some concerns about that .
1078
1079 David Blankfard - We can 't add conditions to the project beyond the 6 that the applicant has stated , and I wanted to know
1080 if anybody else on the board had any additional conditions that they would say, if we did this , we would change our vote .
1081
1082 Beth Bronson . I have one condition that I was thinking of. I would like to put forth the idea of a condition that the right-
1083 hand turn lane on 54 going south towards White Cross be extended an additional 100 feet.
1084
1085 Charity Kirk- Would you approve the project if it was ?
1086
1087 Beth Bronson - Yes .
1088
1089 Taylor Perchau - I want, to remind you that any condition does have to be agreed upon . Also , if we are talking about a
1090 condition that is an NCDOT right of way , we are bringing in a 3rd party that can 't offer their statement on that tonight .
1091 Beth Bronson - That would be my suggestion . I am open to any other conditional requests .
1092
1093 Adam Beeson - Does anyone want to vote on Beth ' s suggestion , up or down ?
1094
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
1095 David Blankfard - I make a motion that we ask the applicant to extend or respond . . .
1096
1097 Bob Hornik- We are willing to do it if NCDOT says okay because ultimately it is a DOT highway . If NCDOT says it is all
1098 right to do that or wants us to do that, we are willing to do it .
1099
1100 Beth Bronson - You are willing to fund the construction ?
1101
1102 Bob Hornik- Yes , ultimately our contractor probably does the work . . .
1103
1104 Beth Bronson - So if the DOT says of course , you can do it , that would be sufficient for you to make that change .
1105
1106 Bob Hornik- If they approve the design for the 100400t additional turning lane , we will build it .
1107
1108 Beth Bronson - Would that require resubmission of a site plan ?
1109
1110 Bob Hornik- If you made it a condition and then we ' d have to amend the site plan , the staff could probably approve that
1111 to show compliance with the condition .
1112
1113 Cy Stober- That condition at this point would be pending DOT approval . It would be a note on the site plan , turn lane to
1114 be extended 100 feet, pending DOT approval .
1115
1116 Beth Bronson - So the approval would not actually make a difference if the DOT said no?
1117
1118 Cy Stober- Yes , correct . Ultimately its their land .
1119
1120 Adam Beeman . Any other questions or concerns?
1121
1122 Statler Gilfillen - I have 4 points here . I ' ve tried to capsulize what I ' ve been hearing all evening . I see this and it' s the
1123 same thing when they came before us before . This is a small scale , local community , there are businesses there , like the
1124 market that sells the local produce , that could be put out of business . That affects the local community . Item 2 , this
1125 proposal as I see it , does not prove that it meets the immediate community needs . Same issue before , today I haven 't
1126 seen any change in that actually presented to me . The 3rd issue , I see an incompatibility with the historic architecture ,
1127 which has since come out in the proposal for the scale of local buildings to what they' re trying to add into the community .
1128 It affects the urban fabric of the community and as such , I appreciate what the engineers and everybody has done
1129 because there' s a substantial cost . I know how much these costs are as an architect that this proposal does substantially
1130 improve the details it expands on many things , answers , the building questions of how you would get it construction , but
1131 it does nothing to change , why we voted on this several months ago? I ' m not seeing anything , I ' m hearing a community
1132 that this is an incompatible project being thrust in their community , and it' s basically the same thing they brought to us
1133 before .
1134
1135 Adam Beeman . One was conventional , this one ' s conditional , that' s 2 different things .
1136
1137 Overlapping conversation
1138
1139 Statler Gilfillen - . . . The question is , I ' m not sure the issues from the first time , how it affects the community itself, that
1140 there was objection to , were really answered . All I saw was the engineering and the architectural information , all of the
1141 traffic information , yes , that was provided to us tonight, that' s good . It would have been nice to see the first time , but I ' m
1142 not sure as a member of this board , I 've seen anything presented tonight that would change the justification of what our
1143 vote was before .
1144
1145 Randy- If there are no other comments , I ' m prepared to make a motion .
1146
1147 MOTION By Randy Marshall to recommend approval of the Statement of Consistency indicating the amendment is
1148 reasonable and in the public interest and the proposed zoning atlas amendment ordinance .
1149
Approved 4 - 5 - 23
1150 Randy Marshall pulled the motion .
1151
1152
1153 MOTION BY David Blankfard to add the condition proposed increasing the 100 ft . right lane to 200 ft . pending NCDOT
1154 approval . Seconded by Beth Bronson .
1155 MOTION FAILED 2 . 10 ( BEEMAN , POOLE , WATSON ; PROCTOR, KIRK, HUNTER, BAILEY, GILFILLEN , KAUFMANN $ MARSHALL)
1156
1157
1158
1159
1160 MOTION BY Randy Marshall to recommend approval of the Statement of Consistency indicating the amendment is
1161 reasonable and in the public interest and the proposed zoning atlas amendment ordinance . Seconded by David Blankfard .
1162 MOTION FAILED 3 - 9 ( POOLE , WATSON $ PROCTOR, BRONSON , KIRK, HUNTER, BAILEY, GILFILLEN , KAUFMANN)
1163
1164
1165
1166
1167 MOTION BY Lamar Proctor that the no votes be based on a finding that the proposed zoning change is not consistent
1168 with the Comprehensive Land Use Plan in that it bypasses and subverts the limitations on commercial uses in rural
1169 activity nodes and is not consistent with the rural activity node as it applies to White Cross and that it is not consistent
1170 with the resource protection area of White Cross School . Seconded by Melissa Poole .
1171 MOTION PASSED 9 - 3 ( BEEMAN , BLANKFARD , MARSHALL)
1172
1173
1174
1175
1176 AGENDA ITEM 11 : ADJOURNMENT
1177 Meeting was adjourned at 9 : 57 p . m .
1178
117960&)
1180 Adam Beeman , Chair