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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - 20050926APPROVED 11!1512005 MINUTES WORK SESSION Orange County Commissioners Orange County Board Of Education Chapel Hill-Carrboro Board of Education September 26, 2005 7:30 p.m. The Orange County Board of Commissioners met for a joint session with the Chapel Hill- Carrboro Board of Education and the Orange County Board of Education on Tuesday, September 26, 2005 at 7:30 p.m. at the Southern Human Services Center in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. COUNTY COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Chair Moses Carey, Jr., and Commissioners Valerie P. Foushee, Alice M. Gordon, Stephen Halkiotis and Barry Jacobs COUNTY ATTORNEY PRESENT: Geoffrey Gledhill and Sean Borhanian COUNTY STAFF PRESENT: County Manager John M. Link, Jr., Assistant County Manager Rod Visser, and Clerk to the Board Donna S. Baker {All other staff members will be identified appropriately below) ORANGE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION MEMBERS PRESENT: Vice-Chair AI Hartkopf, and Board Members Elizabeth Brown, Dennis Whitling. Superintendent Shirley Carraway was also present. ORANGE COUNTY BOARD OF EDUCATION MEMBERS ABSENT: Chair Randy Copeland and Board Members Libbie Hough, Delores Simpson and Brenda Stephens CHAPEL HILL-CARRBORO CITY SCHOOL BOARD OF EDUCATION MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair Lisa Stuckey and Board Members Jamezetta Bedford, Nicholas M. Didow, Pam Hemminger, and Mike Kelley. Superintendent Neil Pedersen was also present. CHAPEL HILL-CARRBORO CITY SCHOOL BOARD OF EDUCATION MEMBERS ABSENT: Vice-Chair Elizabeth Carter and Edward Sechrist The Meeting began at 7:34 p.m. Chair Carey welcomed both School Boards to this session. AI Hartkopf, Orange County School Board, thanked Commissioner Carey and said that Randy Copeland was volunteering in the Gulf States. Lisa Stuckey of the Chapel Hill-Carrboro School Board said all their board members were here except Ed Sechrist and Elizabeth Carter. She said they are glad to be here and have this opportunity to talk to the Board of Commissioners and to their counterparts from the Orange County School Board. 1. CountylOCS1CHCCS Matters a. DiscussionlPolicy Issues 1. School Construction Standards Chair Carey said that this part of the meeting is to provide updates and to hear any comments ar suggestions from members of the School Boards or County Commissioners on some of the items that the school collaboration task force will be addressing in the near future. Jahn Link thanked Chair Carey, members of the Board of Commissioners, and members of the School Boards. The first item is re-examining school construction standards. These standards were created initially far elementary and middle school buildings in the mid-90s and then later {in 1999) standards for high schools were created. The collaboration work group identified this as a major item that needs to be addressed this year. The per square-foot costs and other elements that go into the cost of estimating a school and actually building the school have all gone up, as has the cost of steel and concrete and other items that are all included in the building costs. Jahn Link said the idea is for there to be a general discussion with ideas being solicited by the County Commissioners and Schaal Board members. Lisa Stuckey, Chapel Hill Carrboro School Board, said she and Commissioner Gordon are the two surviving members of the most recent school facility task force. She said it does seem that it is very appropriate to reconsider this, as there are different ideas now about some of the environmental issues related to school construction, acreage, and same of the smart growth issues. The collaboration committee felt it was time to look again at these standards. Dennis Whitling, Orange County School Board, asked about the capacity of Orange High School and Cedar Ridge School. In reading the high school construction standards, his understanding is that these were approved in 1999. He wanted to know if the capacity of Orange County High School stands at 1000 students with the ability to expand in future years and is that what was built at Cedar Ridge? He said that high school #3 is being built for 800 students with the capacity to go to 1200 students. He wondered how the decision was made. Commissioner Gordon responded and said that all the construction standards called for a certain amount of money in the range of $28, $29, $30 million dollars and the new high school with a thousand students would cost $34 million. The Commissioners allocated $30 million so the school system had to cut down the capacity from a 1000-student school expandable to 1500 to an 800-student school expandable to 1200 so they could fit within the available funding. Dennis Whitling wanted to know who made the decision for the School Board and the County Commissioners to vary from the standard. Commissioner Gordon said this was a collaborative decision between the Commissioners and the School Board and Lisa Stuckey agreed. Ms. Stuckey also emphasized that when they designed the school to be expandable to1200 students they tried to make the core facilities very flexible. Although it would be a bit of a stretch, expansion could be done. Pam Hemminger, Chapel Hill-Carrboro School Board, said she would like to advocate putting community mental health staff into the schools. Also, the state school board now has requirements for physical activities in the elementary and middle schools, but the schools lack the space for this and the state did not budget money for it. Superintendent Neil Pedersen said that the standards as they are written were composed after East Chapel Hill School was built {1000 students expandable to 1500) and that is where that additional design standard came from. During the discussions on a variety of sizes for the CHCCS proposed high school it was painted out that there really weren't standards far other size high schools. It was not the intent when these standards were adopted that the only school that would ever be built was a 1500- student high school or a 1000 expandable to 1500. This means that as we work towards another model we would have some flexibility for different sized high schools that will be acceptable to the Commissioners. AI Hartkopf asked if they had gotten to a place where the amount of money allocated to build said high school was reached. Commissioner Gordon said there are different standards in square footage costs and they have not been addressed for a while. When the CHCCS School Board came forth with a request far a 1000-student high school in that location, the current costs and land costs were higher than what was allocated. The School Board asked for $34 million dollars and the Commissioners allocated around $30 million. The School Board then came up with an 800- student school expandable to 1200. The Commissioners worked with them and gave them the go ahead to do that utilizing an interlocal agreement which was quite comprehensive, had quite a few stipulations in it and two addenda. It was a very complex negotiation since there were some environmental stipulations as well that required $300,000 to go toward smart growth principles. She said that environmental standards and parking standards were spelled out. Chair Carey commended Commissioner Gordon for trying to explain what went into the decision for the high school #3 including the location of it. There were a lot of different opinions and they did the best they could in trying to arrive at a decision that would be most acceptable to the School District and the Commissioners in the long run. He would like to commend Commissioner Gordon on her efforts. 2. School Capacity Calculations. Chair Carey stated that this is something that needs to be addressed in the next few months since the determination will need to be made early next year on this issue. This issue has been visited by them before so he asked the Manager to give a brief explanation. John Link pointed out that it is very timely to reach agreement on student membership capacity because we are now at a point where we can actually plan for schools beyond elementary school #10. Given the increased cast, far whatever reason, we experienced with not just school buildings, but other county buildings, it is critically important that we get a handle on what the costs are going to be far future buildings and future expansions. The county has a debt limit the Commissioners have established. We also have a commitment in the SAPFO to carefully plan for these facilities as relates to the towns and the county providing certificates of occupancy for new development to work in tandem. This really needs to be addressed within the next 2 months. Superintendent Pedersen said that class capacity has been discussed many times and that this issue will not be resolved tonight but will be returned to the collaboration committee. The question about who has the authority to lower class size and impact capacity, which then impacts funding issues, has also been discussed and is a very legitimate issue. SAPFO calls for a joint decision by both the County Commissioners and the School Boards about how to determine capacity while taking guidance from the state. There has also been discussion in the meetings about other school systems' compliance and what happens if we do not comply. The enclosed information from Alexis Schauss, Chief, Information and Analysis and Reporting for NCDPI indicates that there is widespread compliance with the 21-1 class size in K-3. It also confirms class sizes in CHCCS are some of the highest averages across the state. There is no waiver for non-compliance; however the penalty for willful non-compliance is the withholding of the superintendent's salary. All school districts are required by law to meet these standards. This does make a difference in our planning and that is the reason the managers are concerned about this issue. In our case, if we look at capacity for K-3, using 21-1 (the new state standard) versus 23-1 (the standard that is in SAPFO},the difference in just those four (4} grade levels is just under 300 students or roughly half a school. Superintendent Carraway said that because construction standards are part of the decision about capacity, it is important to start discussion on this early on. When she has looked at capacities that are lower in other districts, OCS decided to lower their standards early on in the lower grades, and keep them higher in the upper grades. It is just a matter of where you ChoOSe t0 focus. AI Hartkopf said that when they start looking at footprints of schools, real estate casts more in the southern part of the county. As to SAPFO and the capacity issue, Mebane did not sign onto the SAPFO and they are growing very fast, while Hillsborough seems to be growing slower. In the long-term capacity issues, SAPFO really doesn't play too much out in the county. He said that Mebane is eating up their capacity levels. Dennis Whitling asked if this is a capacity issue or is this a conscious decision to keep classes higher. He said that OCS chose to have lower class sizes and could not afford Spanish Teachers, but Chapel Hill agreed to keep higher-class sizes and they could afford those teachers. Lisa Stuckey said she was not on the Board when those decisions were made, but she does know (and she said that Neil Pedersen has some information t0 distribute} that the level of service for their elementary schools this year is 1.04 over capacity (104 percent capacity} and there are no more rooms to put the children in (using the 21-1 ratio). Elizabeth Brown, Orange County School Board, said that the Grumet report stated that Orange County had smaller class sizes in the lower levels but they could not afford specialists. Ms Grumet agreed that OCS had chosen wisely. Chair Carey referred to attachments 1 a-2c charts and asked if this is the class size that both systems reported to the state. Superintendent Carraway said yes and Superintendent Pedersen said that their numbers are pulled electronically. Superintendent Pedersen said that the numbers are from the second month of 2004-05 and if you are not in compliance, then you must become so. Superintendent Carraway said they send reports and get reports back based on the information they send, telling them if there are violations and they can request a waiver for classes 4-12, but not K-3. Commissioner Halkiotis said that CHCCS has serious over-crowding issues in several elementary schools, such as Scroggs, Seawell, Carrboro, and Frank Porter Graham and he asked what needs to be done to prove to Raleigh that you are not in willful neglect? Superintendent Pedersen said that the state doesn't particularly care if our schools are over capacity. That is not the issue they are looking at. So if the students are in art rooms, music rooms, and mobile classrooms then that's how we address thane issues. They are simply looking that they average a 21-1 ratio in K-3 and no classes are over 24 students. If we are, we get a letter telling us to re-organize their human resources in order to bring class size into compliance and there are not waivers in K-3. Commissioner Halkiotis asked if it is safe to assume that in the school's efforts to afford more square footage for teaching opportunities to deal with these overcrowded conditions at the schools just cited, that space that historically would have been used for physical education, the arts, etc. is now being used far regular classrooms. And now that the state is requiring more children be involved in physical education there is not enough space for this. Superintendent Pedersen said they have lost some spaces and added mobile classrooms. They have not lost a gym but at Scraggy Elementary there were 3 designated classrooms for exceptional education classes, which are now regular classrooms; there was a science room, which is now a regular classroom. They put 2 mobile classrooms at Scroggs and in terms of support programs, they have an art room at all schools and a music room at all SChOOIS. Geof Gledhill said that there is a difference between what the state requires and what SAPFO requires, which focuses on hard space, and these two do not have t0 be the same and what he is hearing is let's do what we can to make them the same. Lisa Stuckey said that they are not unsympathetic to the issues that the Board of County Commissioners have. They have not chosen to lower the classroom size but rather the state has required them to lower their class size (not the Board of County Commissioners) and her board supports the lowering of the class size. Dennis Whitling said that the numbers in the fourth and fifth grade levels also need to be looked at to see where each district is as far as class size to see if they are over capacity. Superintendent Pedersen said that they are at a 26-1 ratio in grades 4 and 5, which is the average. The issue for them is that the County is following a capacity formula in K-3, which is 23-1, and the schools have to abide by the law that says that it needs to be 21-1 ratio and they cannot comply without using non-classroom space for classrooms. Chair Carey said that they would be discussing this in the collaboration task farce group. Everyone he has spoken to is in favor of lowering class sizes. The issue is how do we get there based on resources that we collectively have to employ to achieve that goal. 3. Cross-District Collaboration John Link said that the first item is a report from the school systems Superintendent Carraway said that these are the ten identified areas of collaboration that were discussed before and this is an update an those ten items. They will be glad to respond to any questions ar comments. Commissioner Foushee asked about the Middle College program and said that basically there is disappointment about the number of students participating. She asked each Superintendent to describe marketing efforts that were employed to recruit students for this program. Superintendent Carraway said they did a variety of things but basically the program started late and by the time they were able to begin the process most of the students had already made plans to attend other schools. After the principal was hired for the Middle College, staff from both school districts began to work toward providing information to students, introducing the students to the program and introducing the students to the new administrator. Working through the summer, a survey was done in both districts to see who would be interested in the possibility of participating in the program. During this time they actually worked almost one-on-one with the students. In the OCS district, transportation was a problem but now they provide stops within the district. Mostly the low numbers were due to the newness of the program and these numbers should increase next year and perhaps even next semester. Superintendent Pedersen agreed and felt their school district experienced the same problems and the same problems with collaboration classes. They were dealing with something new with the Middle College, and it was not located in their normal school district. He feels it is a great environment and a great opportunity for students. He said that the transportation issue is challenging but doable. Durham faced the same problems. Superintendent Pedersen said that the marketing for this program was very professional. He said that the best way to recruit is one on one -face to face by the principal or guidance counselor. He spoke with people in Greensboro and they faced the same problems. They are very concerned about the numbers, but need to keep working on this next year. Commissioner Halkiotis asked about the total amount of money that the two school districts contributed to the middle college program. Superintendent Pedersen said their portion is $55,000 and Shirley Carraway said that theirs is greater due to transportation. Commissioner Halkiotis commended them on their joint College Night. He said that this is much easier on the recruiters and easier on the parents. He asked about the new paradigm for school resource officers (#4}. It is intriguing that in the second paragraph "they" (he assumes this refers to staff from both districts) discussed the possibility of a special tax to fund resources of common interest such as SRO's (Student Resource Officers). Commissioner Halkiotis wanted to know what this special tax is. Superintendent Pedersen said that this is in reference to a proposed countywide tax to support additional resources in both school districts such as nurses, SRO's and the paradigm part being that funds would not have to be distributed on a per pupil basis but could be used for a specific purpose across the districts. Funding far SRO's is patchwork at best. As for CHCCS, they pay far SRO's; they picked up all of the costs for these for Chapel Hill and two for Carrboro (one of these has since been eliminated} and the other was not funded. The town manager has made it clear that SRO's will not be funded and neither will School Crossing Guards. Commissioner Halkiotis said that Orange County schools are paying $180,000 and Superintendent Pedersen said they (CHCCS) are paying about $290,000. There is some interesting disparity here. Deputies make less than Chapel HiII/Carrboro Police Officers. He said that the costs should have some equity about them and they should lobby our legislators to fund these SRO positions just like a teaching position ar a nursing position, based on how many kids. All school systems should have a School Resource Officer on board. CHCCS is paying more for the SRO's than OCS. There is a difference between Chapel Hill, Carrboro, and Orange County in pay scales far these officers. If the Sheriff lases his additional funding (various grants}, that will be another issue. If the Sheriff goes the same way Chapel Hill and Carrboro has gone, then the county is probably looking at $600,0001$700,000 or more a year. This means that with another Middle School coming on line, the County is rapidly approaching the $1 million dollar figure in just security issues. The life of one person is worth more than any amount we pay for these safety officers. Commissioner Gordon asked far clarification on the "new tax" discussion that staff from both school districts was talking about. John Link responded that this special tax was talked about in the context of their collaboration meetings. They were talking about the potential of the county-wide district tax and what one could do as relates to focusing on certain functions that may be functions that could be contracted as opposed to being per pupil. The kinds of examples, as Neil Pedersen said, included social workers, SRO's, nurses, and there could be others. Jahn Link said that this was part of a countywide district tax idea. He said that they were brainstorming. Superintendent Carraway said that they were looking at some different ways to finance some needs that both districts have, so that the County would pay far something, rather than on a per pupil basis. Chair Carey said this was in the context of the tier paradigm that was discussed during the budget discussions. It was just another manifestation of the tier level funding. Commissioner Gordon said she finds this fascinating and she just wanted to make sure she had heard correctly. She asked about the dual enrollment programs, the interdistrict academic program, where no students signed up. She would like for someone to elaborate on some of the reasons given for na enrollment and are there plans to try this again. Superintendent Carraway said that there was a significant amount of interest by students in the interdistricting programs but when they were asked to actually commit, no one did. It is not known whether the issue was about a half day or whole day program ar just that many students did not want to give up their friends or athletics. She hopes that there will be more interest in the coming years. She said that there was interest was on bath sides. Commissioner Gordon said that since the Middle College had some enrollees she was wondering if there is something they can learn from this about what type of student would want to make a change to do the interdistrict programs. She said that they may need to look at a different type of student needing something the interdistrict programs did not provide and they might want to think about the differences in the two programs. Lisa Stuckey said that even though there are no students showing up here, there were a number that they tried to get. She said that they approved 3-5 students to transfer to the OCS system because of the IB program and Nick Didaw said that they do not deny any students who want to go to the OCS. Lisa Stuckey reminded everyone that there are significant differences in the two programs. She said that the Middle College starts at noon and goes until 5:00 p.m., whereas the interdistrict program is a full-day commitment. It is a totally different kind of experience. Chair Carey asked if there were any transfers in the other direction (OCS students to CHCCS} and Superintendent Pedersen said that they do not accept any out of district students except for employees' children. Commissioner Halkiotis asked about costs to the students who are attending the OCS and Superintendent Carraway said they were not charged. Dennis Whitling said that he knows of three families that chose to move from CHCCS to OCS for the IB program. Chair Carey shared with Board of County Commissioners information about the High Five program that he attended last week and said he continues to be awed about the goal to eliminate dropouts. He encouraged the Commissioners to stay tuned to that discussion because he is sure that the priorities to achieve that goal have not been completely thought through yet. He asked how the $500,000 that is supposed to be available for the next 5 years (the goal is for 8 years) is going to be allocated and is there some process that you have to go through to get access to that $500,000 or some part of it. Superintendent Carraway said they do not actually have access to the money because the money is used to fund the activities that the organization puts on or sponsors and the dollars do not come to the school districts. For example, one of the items that is in your packet tonight is a convocation that was at the RBC Center on August 22, which was funded through the money that was generated through the donations from the five partners. The dollars do not come to the school district. Chair Carey expressed his dismay that none of the $500,000 actually came to the school district. Superintendent Carraway said the money is spent in the five districts and they have the benefits but not the dollars. Chair Carey said perhaps when we have our next district meeting someone could help him understand how it was going to benefit the school district. AI Hartkopf said that Lisa Stuckey, Neil Pedersen and he all attended the district conference in Asheboro and three points were made: collaborative buying, to a lesser extent collaborative selling, and funneling purchases through the county as much as possible since the schools cannot recoup the sales tax. Mr. Hartkopf covered in detail each of these three points and feels very strongly that the Schools and the County should take advantage of all the possibilities available. He hopes that these points can be discussed in depth at the collaboration meetings. Chair Carey said that although he feels sure that same of our board members would like to comment, this concept goes beyond the construction project manager concept, but the idea does include other things. That is something that can be worked on with bath school boards and if there were ways to save some money, the Commissioners would be willing to consider them. Chair Carey referred to attachment I-a-3-b (Mr. Segal's report) and said that they may want to get some comments on this since both school systems have adopted the intent on this and have begun to pursue some of the savings that Mr. Segal discusses in his document. Commissioner Jacobs said that the Segal report is consistent with what AI Hartkopf was talking about and we want to look for ways to collaborate. Commissioner Jacobs said that we need to see what we saved and he said there are some things that we discussed last spring that do no show up here. He suggested for Mr. Segal to go back and add these. He said that it looks like Mr. Segal has made some significant progress and it is good that they are looking at ways to save and try to do the best with the resources available. Even though it has been sporadic, this has been a good example of how collaboration can work. He is glad to see Mr. Segal's report and hopes that we can take some of the better ideas and continue to work together. Chair Carey said that both school boards have already adopted a lot of these suggestions. He asked if that meant that the school systems have adopted those recammendatians and are proceeding to implement thase things to save that money. Chair Carey asked if Orange County government had done any implementations. John Link said that staff was looking at implementing these suggestions. Mike Kelly echoed Commissioner Halkiotis' comments that Mr. Segal has brought a great deal of expertise and he hopes that everyone in government and the school systems will be able to learn from that and experience even more savings. Commissioner Jacobs asked about the sales and use tax (page 4}. He wanted to know if $4Q0,000 comes back to the County. Ken Chavious said that once Mr. Segal identifies a savings, he gets a third of the proceeds. Commissioner Jacobs asked when does the money come in and Ken Chavious said they get a report that states the payment includes reallocated sales tax. Commissioner Jacobs said that they cut money out of budget last week and then this means they will get an addition in revenues. Ken Chavious said they need to make sure they get all of their regular anticipated revenues in as projected. John Link said that he would be disappointed if Orange County does not get this reallocated money back. This is what they expect to receive. Superintendent Pedersen said that with the new budget, the schools would not receive any sales tax refunds starting next year. This is a major budget hit and particularly for the capital budget of High School #3 which was depending on these sales tax refunds. He thinks it will be time well spent if elected bodies could see if this decision can be reversed. Superintendent Pedersen said instead of the county reimbursing the school districts to pay for contractars for major capital projects that the county pays the contractors and the county could get the sales tax back that we would expect to be credited back to the projects they represent. Cammissioner Halkiotis suggested that the sales tax reimbursement, or the lack of, be discussed in the next collaboration meeting and that they may want to try and come up with a statement so they can get this going as soon as possible. He didn't think that he has ever seen a construction budget in this county in 20 years that wasn't counting on that reimbursement coming back. This accounts for several hundred thousand dollars for the high school and about two hundred thousand for the middle school. Chair Carey said that we need to plan to capitalize on that sales tax to protect our interest. Geoff Gledhill said that in reference to High School #3, the school will be owned by Orange County by the financing, and there are interlocal agreements that can make what Dr. Pedersen suggested happen. Commissioner Jacobs suggested the school boards track what the legislature does to them as well as for them and share this with the Board of County Commissioners. A lot of politics is made of what "we are giving the schools" and nothing is said about what is being taken. Also, he asked them to share what they think will be the ramifications financially of this last session of the General Assembly. 4. New School Construction Progress Reports Superintendent Pedersen said that they are currently clearing the site at High School #3. There is rough grading going on and sedimentation is being installed. He said that the drought problem has worked to their advantage. Commissioner Halkiotis asked if the fears about significant amounts of rock have come through. Dr. Pedersen said not yet but that they are still in the clearing stage and so far so good. Superintendent Carraway said that information on Middle School #3 is in the packet - {attachment 1-a-4) and all is progressing well. They are close to moving forward with a name far the new school. They will take recommendations to the board on October 17~". b. Informational Reports 1. Implications of State Lottery for Orange County's School Construction Funding Chair Carey referred to the informational reports, particularly, "Implications of State Lottery for OC Schaol Construction Funding." He said this is a document that was shared by the NCACC, but he had seen one that the School Board Association has put out that is a little different. It talked about the amount of money each county and specifically Orange County is projected to receive from lottery proceeds. Commissioner Gordon said that the NCACC did discuss this in a preliminary way about haw they were going to treat lottery proceeds and it appears it will be part of the public school building fund. In Attachment 1-b-1, page 2 of 5 she said that the state is going to allocate the lottery proceeds to the public school capital fund. You will recall that when the Commissioners passed their new debt policy {the 60-40 policy) these were some restricted funds {the public school building capital fund and also the impact fees) that were put in to paying debt services rather than going with the pay as you go funds. This was a large amount of money. Commissioner Gordon said that she suggested the impact fee monies could be allocated to school districts directly as they used to be. Commissioner Gordon assumes they will be discussing this with the school boards {whether the impact fees and the public school building fund money go into paying debt service before the monies are allocated to the school districts in the county or afterward in which case the Schaol systems get all of this money as pay-as-you-go funds. She assumes that this is on the agenda for information only. Commissioner Gordan recalled the public school building fund was around $800,000 and if they get the lottery money, then this could be more than $2.5 million. It is a significant amount of money that could go towards paying debt services and maybe the impact fees revenue could be allocated as they were before. Commissioner Gordon reminded them that she is only one Commissioner and that this has not been discussed with the other Commissioners. Both ways the Commissioners will spend the lottery money on schools and she reminded them that the impact school fee is higher in the CHCCS than the OCS. The main thing is that the impact fees should go to the schools. Budget Director Donna Dean reported the impact school fee figures - $4,407 for single families and $1,920 for multi-family for CHCCS and $3,000 for single families and approximately $1400 for multi family for OCS. 2. 14th Day Student Membership Superintendent Pedersen said that for CHCCS there were 226 more students than last year and 138 students over what the state projected. This is more or less the opposite of what happened last year when they were about 20 students under the state projection. Commissioner Jacobs asked about their projections for this year. Superintendent Pedersen said that these are the state projections and Steve Scroggs, Chapel Hill-Carrboro Schools, reported that they projected a little bit higher than the DPI and more accurate than DPI and they adjust to the DPI numbers. Commissioner Halkiotis requested a more simplistic statement from both systems of how many children shaved up and how many were funded on the per pupil amounts. 3. 2005-06 Adopted School Budgets Chair Carey asked far comments an the adopted budgets far the 2005-06 school year which are Items 1-b, 3a and 3b. Commissioner Gordon asked that the documents clearly indicate haw much money each school district asked for, what they actually got, what is the difference, and what is the reason for the differences? She was not asking for this information right now but to receive the information at the same time that Commissioner Halkiotis' request for a simpler reporting on the number of students that showed up and how many were funded is received. Commissioner Jacobs asked how much they actually budgeted vs. how much they requested overall. Commissioner Halkiotis said that it would be helpful to know what CHCCS and OCS could salvage and what they could not implement and could not fund. Basically he wanted to know what each school district got and what they did not get. Commissioner Gordon said that they are asking about both operating and capital expenditures. This past year the Commissioners raised the CHCCS district tax a little less than a penny, to replace money the Commissioners had taken from the capital budget, in order to hold CHCCS harmless. CHCCS chose to use this money for the operating budget instead of the capital budget. Commissioner Gordon said she was asking about the entire budget request. Superintendent Carraway said she keeps assuming they will get some sort of format for this reporting. John Link said the Superintendents would meet tomorrow and will discuss this and get the requested information to the Board of Commissioners. AI Hartkopf pointed out that on attachment 1 b-3b, page 3 at the bottom of facing page under "Expansion or New Initiative Budget", the BOE requests are listed and under the Manager Recommendation column the new initiatives that were not funded are listed. This is what the school boards were not able to get. Commissioner Halkiotis reminded everyone that the Manager does not recommend the school budget. Superintendent Carraway said that these were the forms that they were given to complete. Mr. Link said that this would be discussed at the Superintendent's meeting tomorrow. Superintendent Pedersen said that in the state's budget this year the Governor was allocated $85 million dollars to use to improve teacher salaries across the state and he has not taken any action on this yet but he will. It was suggested in a recent meeting that probably the most likely scenario would translate to an across the board 1.6°~ increase that will hit districts who have the larger local supplements and the greater number of local teachers with a cast that they did not anticipate. Superintendent Pedersen said they wound up with a 2°k increase so they are talking about an increase of almost the magnitude that was what our adapted budget includes. He emphasized that they are not here requesting anything tonight but it is going to be a challenge that they will be facing within the next couple of months that was not anticipated. Commissioner Jacobs asked that Superintendent Pedersen include this information with the other information requested by the Board of County Commissioners. Chair Carey asked whom the Governor was talking with about how he is going to allocate this money. Superintendent Pedersen said the liaison had mentioned that we are least competitive at the low end of the salary range that will actually cost us mare money. Lisa Stuckey said that she talked to the Executive Director of the state BOE about this issue and asked if our legislators did not understand the impact of these late decisions and was told that all associations had asked the legislature to finish up their budgets earlier. Chair Carey said that the last item was a matter that the OCS BOE had asked the Board of Commissioners to consider. The CHCCS Board members are welcome stay if they wish. Chapel Hill-Carrboro Board of Education members may adjourn at this point; the Orange County Board of Education has requested that the Board of Commissioners remain to discuss one additional matter Nick Didow said that he, Jamezetta Bedford and Mike Kelly would stay for this discussion. 2. CountylOCS Matter- Middle School #3 Infrastructure Issues Chair Carey said that this section is to address infrastructure casts with the OCS's third middle school. He welcomed Scott Gardner who is the representative far Duke Power Company Superintendent Carraway said she had sent a letter to everyone about the three options related to getting power to Middle School #3. She asked Dr. George McFarley, Associate Superintendent for Support Services for Orange County Schools, to explain. Dr. McFarley said there are several concerns they have with the power issue with Middle School #3. It lies in the Duke Power's service area. (Dr. McFarley painted out an the map the location of the lift station at the request of Commissioner Halkiotis.) The lift station is in Piedmont Electric's service area. Before the school construction began, there was a residence located in this area and Duke Power serviced it. The issue with Piedmont providing power just to the lift station is that it is not economically feasible to bring three-phase power up to this point with that being the only customer. So Piedmont has relinquished that lift station to Duke Power to provide power not only to the lift station but also to the school. Duke Power is requiring that the school district grant them easement not only for bringing electricity onto the school site but also to get it out to West Ten Road. So he said that they are going to talk about some of the options that we have entertained, but that is the big issue. Chair Carey asked where the three phase line currently ended. Scott Gardner pointed out that the three-phase line currently ends off the map. The three-phase line comes across I-8511-40 and the overhead service aver I-40 and dips and serves the DOT Weigh Station. Duke Power would from that point extend the three phase facilities south along their 44K Valt transmission line and then on to this next site and at that point go along the edge of Orange County School's property and come onto the property. Commissioner Gordon asked about the total easement path. Scott Gardner said that the easement path to get to the dip hole which is Duke Power's Option 1 (Dr. McFarley reminded Mr. Gardner that Duke Power's Option 1 was not OCS number one recommendation) is an over head three phase service, and dip and go underground for about 1,000 feet to serve to a 1000 volt transformer that would provide electrical needs for the school facilities, the lighting for the property, as well as be able to extend (he is not sure if that transformer was going to provide for the fields} but Duke Power can provide service to those fields from that point. Commissioner Halkiotis asked Mr. Gardner about how many trees would be taken out by going in above ground. Mr. Gardner said they were looking at a need fora 30-foot easement but since part of the easement can be the transmission unit they may only need to clear about 15 feet. Commissioner Halkiotis asked whose property they would run this on. Scott Gardner said that they could run this on school property. Dr. McFarley said that they have no reservations about providing the easement. It is just the provision of getting electrical service to the property about which they have same concerns. Commissioner Jacobs asked which way Duke Power's service ran. Scott Gardner said that right now they would be coming south. The substation is up in the Efland community on the north side of I-85. Currently Dr. McFarley had mentioned the single phase line that served the old house then and that delivery runs eastward out of Efland to Mt. Willing Road south across I-85140 to West Ten Road ,then westward along West Ten Road and it is single phase for about 2 miles and there is not enough capacity on that line to provide three phase service. Commissioner Jacobs asked if westward of this is Piedmont electric and Mr. Gardner confirmed this. Chair Carey asked if the option that was just described going south across school property and running line underground to the building is the school district's number one option. Dr. McFarley said it is the school district's preference that it go overhead and go underground to the building pad and also underground on the east side of the pond to serve the lift station and continue underground out to West Ten Road and going back to the west if Duke Power wishes to have the easement and provide three phase power further to the east. Chair Carey said that on the school's document their option 1 has a cost of $50,000 to $100,000. Superintendent Carraway said that the $2000 is only for the small underground area and they are asking for underground for when the lines come onto campus and that all of the lines on campus and in front of the campus be underground. She said that this is their most preferred option. Chair Carey said if running the line from that corner to the school building will serve everything on site why is it necessary to run it dawn south to the lift station and then out to the street. Superintendent Carraway said that Duke Power says that is what they have to do. The OCS BOE does not think they should, but Duke says we have to. Scott Gardner said that in their responsibility to provide electric service for the Piedmont Carolinas they are always looking and the Utilities Commission encourages them to maintain their proven reliability down the road. They are always looking for ways to connect various parts of circuits at low costs for the purpose of restoring electric service in the event of a major outage. And, as in this case, when they come onto property to provide electric service, they also consider getting through that piece of property somehow and with the agreement of the customer so that they can move from this extension of their facility onto the next parcel of property to serve what ever may come down the road. Since they already have lines there they are simply making that connection with this capability. Scott Gardner said that all of this capability is to Duke's advantage in an effort to serve all of their customers. There is no charge to the customer for constructing that line overhead. Commissioner Halkiotis said it appears that Scott Gardner wants the Board of County Commissioners, the Board of Education and the taxpayers of this county to run a power line to serve future customers. He considers this one of the most outrageous things he has ever heard. He understands it is a business for Duke, but Orange County is in acash-strapped environment in this county when it comes to our schools. The Orange County Schools do not need this extension. Scott Gardner said that in the effort to provide electric service fairly and equitably to all citizens of North Carolina in a safe, low-cost and reliable manner, they have established some service regulations and an underground utility extension plan. The underground plan says that new bulk feeders necessary to serve new developments will be installed overhead unless the customer desires to have them installed underground. This applies to everybody. Duke Power is providing an opportunity for the schools and the county to have this capability added at no cost. If they want to put it under ground it is a lot more expensive. He said that $0 °~ of what Duke Power installs on a daily basis goes in underground and it is relative inexpensive. Once you get into a residential development you can direct bury the conductors. So a single-phase primary line that serves a transformer can be direct buried. That is simple - a one man trenching crew can do that. But to install bulk feeders which most always run along the public right-of-way, you have a lot activity with water and sewer, natural gas and other major facilities and they cannot afford to have those lines direct buried. If a residential development subcontractor digs into it, you are only knocking out 50 customers. If you have a subcontractor dig into a bulk feed you may be knocking out 2000 customers. The majority of outages that occur on a daily basis are underground outages. But these have been restricted to a very small numbers of customers because of the design we have built over time. Commissioner Jacobs asked Scott Gardner if extending the line in front will increase their customers and Scott Gardner said that the Board of County Commissioners would determine what growth comes down the road. He said that their growth projections are based on Orange County's Planning Department information. He is not aware of any growth development at this time. Dr. McFarley said that it could be ten years ar more before this three-phase loop is extended around Efland. Superintendent Carraway said that in the meantime the County or Schools would have to pay and their School Board's contention is that if they give Duke an easement, then they as the customer should have some say so as to what this looks like and the OCS is asking that they do it underground. The school's special use permit (SUP) calls for the power to be underground. So if it is above ground, then the School District will have to came back to the Commissioners for them to give the schools some kind of leeway to be able to do that. Either one of those things require more time than we have. She said that they are under some pretty severe time constraints if they are going to have power to that site by January 1, 2006. Commissioner Jacobs asked Scott Gardner about the a-mail he had sent to Dr. McFarley about the option to run along the backside of the property that according to Mr. Gardner was not acceptable because Duke Power was unable to secure an easement from NCDOT. Commissioner Jacobs asked how that would have worked. Scott Gardner said it would come along either DOT property or the school property and he understood that DOT would not give them easement to run this on their property. Commissioner Jacobs said that they would still have had the looping issue and it would have been along the road. Mr. Gardner said that was correct. Commissioner Jacobs said that Mike Mills informed them as a Board that DOT had agreed to that. Scott Gardner and Dr. McFarley said this is news to them. Commissioner Jacobs referred to the "Report to the Public Staff' from the North Carolina Natural Disaster Preparedness Task Force in 2003 on the feasibility of placing electric distribution facilities underground. In summary (page 3 tap) it says, "that the investigation also found that the costs of burying distribution lines in newly developed commercial and residential areas is often feasible and cost-effective. All of the Utilities have plans on file with the Commission detailing the terms, conditions, and charges under which they agree to extend distribution service to customer locations. Each utility will place new facilities underground when the additional revenues cover the casts or the cost differential is recovered through a contribution in aid of construction." So basically what he is saying is that the only way that Duke Power is to do this is if it is a contribution in aid of construction and the only entity that Duke Power considers necessary to pay for it is the school system. Scott Gardner said that it is the property owner. The earlier part of that report talked about that it is cost effective to do it inside residential and commercial developments. They are not talking about bulk feeders. When you are talking about bulk feeders, you are talking about the backbone of the system that feeds larger areas down the road. This is relatively inexpensive. Commissioner Gordon asked about the possible route along DOT right-of-way that is in question, and the way it is set up now with water and sewer and for future use. She said the school system might want to build in that area to the west of the school but there would be a power line there under this plan. She asked if they were going to put power lines there, why can't Duke Power put them in some other route. Scott Gardner said that one of the questions that came out of the meeting they had back in April 1995 was "is there a cleaner way to provide service to this pump station". So consideration was given to using a route that Mr. Gardner pointed out on a map. The problem with coming this route was that there a lot of wetlands area and to go overhead will require accessing by Duke Power. They would need to have access by constructing some sort of commercial grade alley way or something that we can use to get trucks in there to set poles and if there is ever damage that they could access quickly for replacement purposes. Dr. McFarley said that the cost for this access road would be around $100,000-150,000 just for the construction and maintenance of the road. Commissioner Gordon said that they need to try and get the DOT right-of-way. She said that the issues are where the line goes and having to pay for it and she thinks Duke should pay for it. Scott Gardner said that the only way for Duke Power to pay for it is to make a contribution to the School District. Scott Gardner said that the only way he can respond to this is that they have a difference of opinion as how we should install, pay for, and regulate the installation of utility lines. Commissioner Halkiotis said that he is quoting from Superintendent Carraway's letter dated September 21, 1St page, last paragraph: "Piedmont Electric has indicated that they can provide underground service within our required time frame at a fraction of the cost that Duke Power is charging because they realize that over the years, they will recoup any investments they make in our properly. With this offer in hand, the district is sending an official letter to Duke Power, asking them to release the territory to Piedmont Electric, a request that is likely to be denied." So he wonders why Duke Power won't let it go to Piedmont Electric since they are willing to provide the service at a fraction of the cost. Scott Gardner said the reason that Piedmont Electric can serve this inexpensively is that this is the end of their line and they have no desire to extend it. Duke does not have this luxury and they have other customers and they chose not to release this. Commissioner Halkiotis said he thinks they chase not to release because they da not want to release the future money that will be made. Scott Gardner said that they chose not to do this because Duke Power has given the School District a $1900 option to provide underground service to this facility. The fact that the Commissioners and the School Board want this particular extension to go underground is what would be raising the costs of implementation. Commissioner Halkiotis said Duke Power is asking the taxpayers to subsidize a private organization in North Carolina. AI Hartkapf said that Piedmont Electric has released this territory to Duke Power. This may be the end of Piedmont's line and this may cause more problems with the power. They are willing to go with Piedmont and Commissioner Halkiatis is right in that the circumstances surrounding this are considerably less palatable than the finances surrounding this. Commissioner Jacobs asked if it wouldn't it be better for the school system and cost considerably less money if Piedmont services the southwest corner and far Duke to run between the County's parcel and the school parcel. This would at least address same of the aesthetic considerations. It also looks like it would be considerably shorter. Dr. McFarley said that Piedmont was unwilling to extend the three-phase line just to serve that pump station. It would not be economically feasible for them with the pump station being the only consumer of three-phase power. They would still have to came a distance to get to the pump station also. Commissioner Jacobs made the point that Piedmont Electric would open up the whole Economic Development District if they ran the line and if Duke Power agreed to relinquish the school. 5o in some ways the argument that it is not economically feasible for Piedmont is more absurd than Duke's argument, because Duke is making the argument, whether we agree with it or not, that it is not getting considerably more customers but Piedmont has to knave that they will get considerably more. Commissioner Jacobs asked what is the difference in feet if the line were finished across the middle and came down. Dr. McFarley said he did not know. Commissioner Jacobs said coming across the middle is considerably shorter and this also addresses same of the aesthetic considerations. He just wanted to know what the difference would be. Scott Gardner said that he does not know and he said that they would then be making this a bulk feeder and it will drive the cost up. They can run some preliminary estimates for the Board. Commissioner Gordon said that if they are talking about running it underground along the road, is that road in or not and is it a paved road. It seems that it would be best to find out if DOT's information about the right-of-way is correct because this seems like it would be more desirable. Dr. McFarley said that this was their first option. Scott Gardner said that he is not familiar with the amount or the size of the wetlands area and about their ability to set pales and maintain them given the existence of the wetlands. So they would have to think about what has to be constructed to give them access and the ability to get to their pales in the event they would need to replace them. Dennis Whitling said if you could provide three phase power all over then that would solve one issue but the other issue in terms of whose property you are on and as to whether it is above ground or underground would still exist. Scott Gardner said that if they could use the existing easement they might not need to come in an the north side of the road. Commissioner Foushee agreed with all the others, and she said she was reminded of the deadlines. She said she wonders with the options that OCS have laid out, if Duke Power is willing to compromise in the interest of doing the greater good, then there should be a willingness to compromise and meet the deadlines and to save the taxpayers' money. She is not hearing anything about a compromise from Duke Power. Scott Gardner said that if they were to agree to install this underground at no charge for OCS then they would have violated the utilities regulations and if they do this far them, they have to do this for everyone-putting all of their lines underground. He said their relationship with the State and the Utility Commission is, as much as they possibly can, to build it inexpensively, build it wisely and build it safely. Overhead construction does this. The problem is consistency. He said he can ask his board the question but he does not have the authority to deviate. Chair Carey asked Craig Benedict about the underground vs. overhead lines and the SUP which was issued by the County. Craig Benedict said that this section is in the EDD and requires all utility lines to be underground by their regulations. He said that the bottom line is that the utilities are to be underground and deviation is not anticipated. John Link said that the Board of County Commissioners can deviate and can make a judgment and that this is a public purpose. Commissioner Gordon said that when you talk about natural disasters such as tornados, there is an advantage to putting lines underground. Commissioner Jacobs said that the utilities commission's report said that replacing the existing overhead distribution lines with underground lines would cost approximately $41 billion, nearly six times the net book value of the utilities' current distribution assets, and would require approximately 25 years to complete. Commissioner Jacobs said that he is looking for some sort of compromise such as possibly carrying the lines across the width of the property gratis and then putting the lines on the county side of the road, if this is not in violation of the county's SUP. Later the county can pay at some subsequent time if they choose to bury the lines. He is just looking for a way to move this forward. Duke Power can be the good corporate citizen that it likes to portray itself as and perhaps is and we can get some decision makers or people who potentially can bring the policy to the table so we can bring a resolution back to the boards. The sooner we can have this meeting, the sooner we can move. Commissioner Jacobs made this proposal in the form of a motion. A motion was made by Commissioner Jacobs and seconded by Commissioner Halkiotis not to allocate $250,000 to OCS and to ask far a meeting with Chair Carey, Commissioner Halkiotis, OCS representatives, DOT, Piedmont Electric and Duke Power and to find out if DOT will grant a right of way. VOTE: UNANIMOUS Chair Carey said that he is not prepared now or in the future to approve giving the OCS $250,000 for this. Superintendent Carraway said if they were able to set up a meeting, haw quickly can they get this information back to the Board of County Commissioners? She said that OCS is very close to not being able to meet their time frame for middle school #3. Geof Gledhill said that the only process that the zoning ordinance allows is a rezoning in the SUP and this standard cannot change in one week. Geof Gledhill said that you would have to have a public hearing and John Link said that could be accomplished in the month of October and Geof Gledhill said that this is possible with a special meeting at the end of the month. Commissioner Jacobs said they could advertise now for a special meeting. John Link asked Scott Gardner about a payment plan and Mr. Gardner said usually all monies are paid upfront and he is not aware of any payment plans. Chair Carey said that assuming the $250,000 is paid, when will the loop line get constructed and Scott Gardner said that this money is only for underground burial and they will install the lines overhead for free. Duke Power is not going to invest capital just to sit there. AI Hartkopf said that he is being told that one month will cripple their critical path and they will not get the school opened on time. Scott Gardner said that he will inform Duke Power about Commissioner Jacob's suggestion about coming across and coming down with the lines and if that is not possible, what is the option we proceed with. Commissioner Jacobs said that other options would be a topic for the meeting group to discuss. AI Hartkopf is not sure that they have the time to get approval to go aboveground. Commissioner Gordon asked if OCS could pay for it themselves. Superintendent Carraway said that they do not have the money in their budget and she said they had been told by Duke Power that they need to pay up front in order to get power. Chair Carey said that they might try to find where the money could come from in the school budgets. John Link said that whatever OCS's priorities are for next year's CIP, to see where $250,000 could come from and then the County and Duke Power will have to come to some agreement. Commissioner Jacobs said that the county is not an entity that would default. AI Hartkopf said that then they would have $250,000 capital that they were supposed to put directly to providing education. John Link said that he is not disagreeing with the Board of Education's decision and he said he was at the meeting in May and there was discussion of the power being overhead and there was not a discussion of it having to be underground. The Board of Education made a decision that you wanted the power underground. Superintendent Carraway said this was based on the SUP. Chair Carey said they would be discussing this at the proposed meeting. The meeting adjourned 10:38 p.m. Moses Carey, Jr. Chair Donna S. Baker Clerk to the Board, CMC