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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - 19761028MINUTES ORANGE COUNTY BOARD OF' COMMISSIONERS OCTOBER 28, 1976 The Orange County Board of Commissioners met jointly with the Orange Water and Sewer Authority on Thursday, October 28, 1976, at the Carrboro Town Hall in Carrboro, N. C. Commissioners present were Chairman Flora Garrett, Norman Gustaveson, Jan Pinney and Richard Whitted. Commissioner absent was Norman walker. Members of the Orange hater-Sewer Authority present were Ghairman Paul Morris, Arthur Hurow, Flora Garrett, Jonathan Howes, Ernest Patterson, Braxton Foushee, A11en Platers, and Shirley f4arshall. Others present were S. M. Gattis, County Administrator; Neal Evans, Finance Director, and Betty June Hayes, Clerk to the Board. Flora Garrett opened the meeting with a short summary of Orange County's interest and involvment with the development of water resources for Orange County. Mrs. Garrett stated that "the County had developed Lake Orange, and had acquired some land and had begun to develop on a slow basis Seven Mile Creek. She stated that "when the Authority and Southern Orange Community began to really get into difficult regarding additional water and we could see that resources were being transfer to a public body, we decided that it might be appropriate for us to talk about joining together in some kind of manner to create not only water resources for northern Orange County, in development of Seven Mile Creek, but to do it on a total county-wide basis and also to help in the develop- ment of water resources for southern Orange County, because there are many benefits. It is very easy to say that this only benefits the people who drink the water, or the urban residents, but I don't think that is true. There are many other benefits that can be acquired and many long range affects of planning for good and adequate water, so that we don't ever have to have conservation ordinances, maybe in the future. That is what we are' striving for. We are both striving for plans for the future. So, with those words, what we gave the other night, I think there was a consensus statement that the Commissioners were in- terested in developing a total water resource for the County. I think that was made a part of the official record. The first thing we ought to do beside asking for some up-date on Seven Mile Creek from Rose, Pridgen and Freemon, was to discuss with the Authority how the County and the Utility can work together. So the Commissioners are here to- night to discuss with you the opportunity." Mr. Faul Morris stated, "we might as well get into it, and that is the financing. The cost of construction of Cane Creek, and the extent to which the County would be interested and willing to do the initial financing. That would be, I guess, the initial part, and once that is, if there is an affirmative answer to that then there are a lot of things up the line to begin now to discuss. What would be the local arrange- ment and agreement between the County and the Authority so that the Authority could be guaranteed that this water resource would be adequate to meet the needs of south Orange as if we had gone on and built it our- selves. So, I guess, the first thing to do is too find out how serious the County is, and how logical the County thinks it is to talk about the initial financing from County resources." Mrs. Garrett stated, "there arm several ways. One of the advantages, I think, of the County proceeding is the use of general obligation bonds. Now there are several ways to use general obligation bonds but we, since you have just plunged right ahead, there are several ways to do it. We could propose to build the reservoir and the Authority could construct the pipe lines, the pumping station and what else is necessary to take the water into the County. There is another way, which is along the same line, the County could use general obligation bonds to construct the reservoir and also sell the water at a bulk rate to the Authority. Then the people who are using our water, who da not pay taxes, can share in benefits. There would still be a very substantial saving, it would seem, either way by using the revenue bonds. The other thing that I would hope the County could pursue, and the Authority also, is the fact that there are steps that need to be taken regarding sedimentation structures, rural conservation and development funding which the County is eligible as a C ~/ rural area to receive, and there are several avenues that would seem to make it possible tv reduce the total financial cost." Shirley Marshall stated that her question was "the people feel the County offering to built this, they think that this will mean that there is a raise in their taxes. Tsn't it true that all water and sewer ameni- ties have to be paid for by rates and it would be the users who would pay off the general obligation bonds?" Mrs. Garrett replied, "not necessarily. This would not be a revenue bond. Like Lake Orange, it would be a general obligation bond __ and there is nv user charge. That's why 2 was saying that the benefit to sell it at a bulk rate would let institutions that do not pay taxes and other people share in that cost to .some extent and still having the general obligation bonds. Also, you could use either Farmers' Home Administration loans or other means, but it seems to me that it would probably cut the cost. We have talked about that with 5oi1 Con- servation Service and with Willie Glover of the Farmers' Home, but the possiblities were not very attractive." Ms. Marshall stated that she knew the sewer bonds had to be kept. separate. Sam Gattis stated, "these are not water bonds, these are general obligation bonds and do not have to be paid from any particular revenue source, just general obligations of the County." Commissioner Gustaveson inquired, "to follow up on Shirley's point, it would involve a tax increase. Yau could not do that large a bond issue without an increase." Chairman Garrett stated that this was one of the matters brought up the other night, "that there are certain other benefits from having a reservoir that would benefit all the residents of the County, whether it is say available to picnic, hiking trail, all of these will have to be planned very carefully." Jonathan Howes remarked, "2 think it's important to mention, Flo, that the Authority, because of the restrictions in terms of using rates to retire bonds can't use monies raised through the bonding process for recreational development and that is far from the basic. purpose of a water supply. The County, it seems to me clearly can. I think as all of us thought of that reservoir there, we 'have hoped that it would be a source for the south Orange community, more than just a water resource. It clearly does offer a recreation potential but, as you say, it must be handled carefully and soundly so that it doesn't represent an enormous impact on the community that is there and it does not jeopardize the basic and fundamental purpose which has to be a water supply. The other thing i,t seems to me that is important here is the responsibility for protection of the watershed is going to lie now and forevermore with the County y' and that is a crucial question that needs to be faced. County ownership might be a way of assuring greater integration between functions that the County performs as owners, and functions that the County would perform as regulators of the land use." Commissioner Gustaveson stated, "the real question now and the Commissioners have spent a good deal of time talking about proposed Seven Mile Creek and less on Cane Creek, because we really wanted to wait til we got to the Authority. One of the questions we really wanted to ask tonight is to get a total view of the Authority about their re- actions to the idea. Is there any negative reaction to the idea or test the general thesis with general comments." Mr. Morris stated that all members of the Authority were present except one and before the hour was over, Mr. Gustaveson weuld hear from all members of the Authority. Jonathan Howes stated, "the first and foremost concern of the Authority has to be water supply. The only reason for doing this pro- . jest is to augment the water supply of the towns of Chapel Hill and Carrboro and its environs, Therefore, I would say, as an Authority member, that 1 would insist that any agreement entered into between the County and the Authority would have to be one that would insure that the primary use of Cane Creek would be for water supply purposes. Now that says something about usage that might occur around the lake. For example, it says that you couldn't guarantee a certain lake level all the time, in times of drought. It would mean that a draw-down would occur inevitably, and would have to occur if the dam is to serve that purpose. Now on the other hand, it seems to me that the body of water we are talking about is sa great that it is not likely to en- counter a great period of drought. S think if we can, from the point of view of the Authority, be absolutely and finally and completely sure the water supply and the purpose will be the first one and it will be inviolate, then I don't see any disadvantage to the Authority in joint- ly developing the resource there with the County." Arthur Hurow stated "I expressed support of the notion when it was first made public. It was said to me, 'don't you think this is something that they are trying to take away from you?' And I said on the contrary, S think they are trying to develop a partnership approach to this thing and exploit the most viable options that are available to the County Commissioners which don't have. I agree with Jonathan that the primary mission on the purpose of the Water Sewer Authority can become servant to some grant scheme, but I want to add that we are 'working against a specific time table. That to me is pretty well in con- Crete. We made a commitment to the people who live here in the commu- nity at least in the planning stages. Obviously, we haven't planned anything, we haven't made any approaches to the people who own the land, we haven't negotiated with anyone and have na instructions to do it yet,, but we have assured them that we would expedite in every way possible so the kind of summers as we had this summer would not occur, if we can prevent in future summers, we would certainly do that. We also attended a conference with property owners around Cane Creek, and despite the fact that one would like to expedite and do everything in a hurry, we must consider some true hardships that are going to occur to the people up there and they are going to have to be considered. So, on the one hand I say to you we have a timetable, and second, we have to procede cautiously that all those things have consideration, particularly with the individuals that we will be getting into. Maybe, yeu are more aware of that and are closer to it in the County than we are. On the other hand, there are shortages in water and the sewer systems in this town are something that we have solve expeditiously." Gen Hurow stated further that he agreed with Mr. Howes on the matter of making. sure the primary mission of the Cane Creek project is not deluded or forgotten or sent back after six month, a year, ox a year and a half, which would depend on how serious the Authority and the County is about doing this project. Chairman Morris asked that those present talk about some of the delayed potentials. He stated, "as Art said, time is paramount. If the Authority were to go ahead and finance Cane Creek project, the financing would be relatively in a short time, if we sold revenue bonds. Now, if the County were financing, first you would have to have a refe- rendum, is that correct?" The reply was "yes sir." Chairman Morris continued, "and then I wish someone would comment on the time schedule involved in that. And then I wonder if you have thought and talked about what's (time) is involved in some of these other potential sources of revenue, such as you have mentioned, financial aid from federal sources. Is that something that is likely because of the complexities of going from one unit to another unit applying for funds and applying for grants, it's going to take even more time than the selling of bonds. I think we ought to talk about the time involved in getting these." Chairman Garrett sated "I think what the County was waiting for was the meeting here tonight, and I think that if there is some joint interest, the County would have to make some commitment to go full speed ahead. I think the RC&D funds for sediment structures are not difficult to work out." Mrs. Garrett asked the County Manager to comment on this. Mr. Gattis stated that funds may be available and they may not. "If they are available, presumably there would be more than one sediment structure, they may not all be built at one time, it is not necessary that they all be built at one time." Chairman Garrett explained "it is the County's idea that when the lake is built in the beginning, to build sediment structures to retard the sediment from building up in the lake and thus, prolong the life of the lake. Now that is not critical, but it makes sense to plan all of that in the beginning. ~~~ Mr. Gattis stated "these could be added after the principal reservoir." Bob Steward said that these structures would probable follow the building of the dam rather than being bu'i'lt at the same time. Chairman Morris asked for discussion on the time element involved in the selling of general obligation bonds. He stated "lets just stick with the first question I raised about selling general obligation bonds. Assuming that within the next two or three weeks, the Authority in its. deliberation would formalize a response to the County and say 'lets do - it.' how long would it be before the County would likely have a refe- rendum?" Sam Gattis replied that it would take less than three months, but that he did not know if this would be the expedient time to have an election or not. Jonathan Howes asked Mr. Gattis to pursue that statement. He asked, "three months, now the Authority is on a much more accelerated schedule than that. Suppose we were to go ahead and secure our financing, which of course, would be based on revenue bonds, is there any reason why that financing could not be replaced by County financed, County passed general obligation bonds?" Neal Evans stated, "do it exactly that way, you can do the whole thing in tandem." Mrs. Garrett stated "that was my feeling, that we would have to do that, we could not affort -- all of a sudden, the Authority could say, well we are going to stop and then wait until the County..." Mr. Morris interrupted, "you see no technical, the difficulties if, let us say we sold two million dollars worth of bonds in January or December. You see no technical difficulties up the line, a few months hence, six months hence, the County picking those up. Won't it be we are substituting for it?" Neal Evans replied, "I am not sure why you would sell two millions in January." Mr. ,Morris stated, "I think its one million, isn't that related to Cane Creek? We have enough in our first proposed bond issue to cover land costs." Mrs. Garrett stated, "but s thought we were told that we could recall those. Is that not right?" Bob Stewart replied, "I don't think they've have a call provision for a least a minimum period of ten years. Term bonds are non-recallable for say ten years." Mr. Garrett said "2 wouldn't issue these bonds, 2 would just deal with options...it will take several months to work out land trans- actions and to do the surveying, and by that time Gounty money would be available." Shirley Marshall stated "2 would hope it would be available, but one of the things T am really worried about is that we are all very hopeful that the County, the people in Chapel Hill and Carrboro on a different bond issue for all our citizens, that is going to put a great deal of indebtedness upon ourselves in the next week or so, and we would hope they realize the advantages to them in this movement but T don't think we can take the chance of losing the time that we would lose, should the referendum not be passed." Mrs. Garrett asked "but isn't it possible to do this with the options?" Gen. Hurow stated "let me give you an amateurish answer to what I hear is transpiring now. 2 have absolutely no experience with bonds or options, but it seems to me that the element which we are talking about is the purchase of land. A few minutes ago, it seemed to me that the interest of the working together was that the County was interested in constructing a Reservoir, perhaps the buying of additional land and whatever else is necessary and letting us pump the water through our pumping station and through our pipe system far the consumers a.n southern and Chapel Hill-Carrboro. Now that's what we are saying. I see nothing wrong with this million dollars being in the initial offering, and we will be repaying them out of revenue bonds while the large financQ such as the reservoir, dam and anything else will be somethincr that we wouldn't have to vote to 'halter skelter' and I believe with Shirley that we would be piling an immediate debt, or a new debt, just a short time after the bond referendum which we are all going to find out about on Tuesday." Mrs. Garrett inquired, "we would buy the land from the Authority?" Mr. Hurow replied "no, 2 didn't say that. I said that we would con- tinue having it in our financing. When you got ready to have your re- ferendum, or we would have the referendum, I should say, your's would be ours, everyone in Orange County, we could then decide whether you, the Commissioners, or the County wants to own the dam, the reservoir, and whatever else, and how much additional land, or the same amount of land, or with that the fact that you might want to purchase the land from the Authority. I don't know whether we could sell it if we had revenue bands on it, could we?" Chairman Morris stated that the Authority could have a ninty-nine year lease. General Hurow said "what I am saying is that I don't see any inoon- sistent with us going ahead with our present financing and leaving that million dollars..." Mr. Morris stated, "we dare not, we dare not take any chance of having our construction held up because of the absence of funds. We just dare not take that chance." Gen. Hurow added "there's no need, because there's no way it ceuld compromise your position in Hillsborough." Ernest Patterson stated ''it's still my understanding that the Authority is going to have to build the pumping station and water lines. We are not asking the County to do that?" The reply to this question was "yes." Mr. Patterson continued, "and that extra million dollars the County could buy the land from us of what bonds don't pose against it, for whatever we pay for it and we could put that million into the pumping station. We are still going to have to finance the pumping station, or possibly." General Hurow stated "well I think the issue, as far as T see it, is that T think the structure of our financing is sound and in no way compromises your plan for water resources." Mr. Morris stated that he did not see any technical problem. "We could sell it perhaps, to the County, we could lease it, or we could jointly say we'll supply the land, you supply the dam. There are all sorts of ways we could do it." Chairman Morris asked "what about the other sources of grants. rs there a long process in obtaining those, do you think?" Chairman Garrett stated, "I think that something the County would have to put part of its staff to work on and see. The Farmers' Home would be helpful, and I think we would just have to work on this to see what the time table would be, but I think this would be to the County's advantage." Commissioner Gustaveson stated "there are three things that you have mentioned, they are all........" (cannot decipher) Mr. Morris asked "won't be involved in the actual construction?" Mrs. Garrett replied "Farmers' Home is, from what I've heard from Mz. Glover they can for rural, water supply projects involving rural areas, that they can do it, with the actual construction on the reservoir." Commissioner Gustaveson stated "that can be answered very quickly." Mr. Morris stated "let me ask a straight forward question. What is the County thinking about relative to the financial responsi- bility. If the County went ahead and build a dam and the Authority pumped from it. Is the County thinking that this financial burden or this financial cost would be. a part of the total County tax base contri- bution to total County water resources, or are you thinking in terms of some sort of partial charge or whole charge to the Authority over .a period of time?" Commissioner Gustaveson replied "I think Flo has already hinted at one of the issues involved here. I think that the feeling is that _ total County tax money is for use by everybody without really affecting water rates. .Now the problem is for those institutions that are large water users that do not pay County tax, there maybe a problem." Mr. Morris asked "you mean the University." Mr. Gustaveson's reply was "yes." Commissioner Gustaveson continued "but I think it's a question we should talk about and work out a way to provide equity and provide fairness for the tax payers of the County so they would not be shoul- Bering a major capital expenditure." Mr. Howes asked "would it be possible to share debt service bet- e: ween the general tax base of the County and the users of the system?" Mrs. Garrett replied "that was the idea, with the bulk rate." Commissioner Gustaveson continued "but getting back to shirley's question, it will add something to the tax base, so I think also if you go .... ~~ Mr. Howes interrupted, "but there would be another way that it would not do that at all. Couldn't it be paid off entirely by the rate payers of the system here?" Mrs. Garrett replied "well it could if we dad it that way, by the bulk rate..... (cannot decipher) MT. Howes stated "the Authority would buy all the water that is produced from it and the payments to the County would be .... so that there would be no impact on the County. It seems to me that is one option that needs to be seriously considered." General Hurow stated "based on the meeting we had last week and based on the general attitude as to the users, I would favor that direction against spreading it out all over the County." Don Willhoit asked "what you are saying then is to have the users to pay against County funds?" General Hurow replied "yes." Ms. Marshall stated "then this includes all the people whether they pay taxes or don't pay taxes." Mr. Willhoit added "the total cost would still be less because of the method of financing, but also I think we should address our- . selves to the question of other consumers who might want to utilize that water supply." Mrs. Garrett stated "that's what I was thinking and that's why I was saying bulk rather than just automatic interest and principle retirement, that there is same other benefit for the whole community." Mr. Willho~a stated "either the Authority has to have the charge to provide water for all consumers within the area or....." Mr. Howes interrupted, "my guess would be, well to go back to what 2 said in the beginning, and that is from my point of view is the purpose of this whole enterprise is to provide the water supply to this community, and that supply has been identified and planned for over a period of years and if you begin to take away from that for other purposes, I think we would be in for problems." Mr. Willhcit stated "if we are unable to provide water for people in the sourthwestern section of the County, then it is not a total County water resource." Commissioner Whitted stated "but it would still be a multi-purpose water facility to be used .with regulations County-wide." Commissioner Garrett added "T think the Authority should really be the mechanism for providing water pipes and....." Commissioner Whitted stated:"I would think that part of the general - revenues of the County would be used to pay off the bond for that pur- pose. Another question that comes up, and I know this is just how you would structure the whole thing in talking about bulk use, but since this is going to be a secondary water supply rather than a primary, if we have an extremely rainy year, you may not release any, if you've got water stored in University Lake there may not be any need to re- lease water, so if you went on bulk use, then there would not be any revenue and you would have to figure out some other way." Shirley Marshall stated "this brings us to a ticklish thing that we'll struggled through sc much is, has the County thought of what this will do to the management structures and how it would fit into the 201 and 208." Mrs. Garrett replied "I think how it would fit into 208 is how we protect the quality of the water." Ms. Marshal 1. continued "but we've talked with Durham~~.about the difficulties of the Authority dealing with a jurisdiction, and 2 want to make sure that we are not moving into any pramatic area .problems." Mr. Morris inquired "what is your answer now when the Town of Hillsborough draws water down from Lake Orange." Unidentifiable voice "do you measure what is released?" Mrs. Garrett replied "no." Mr. Patterson stated "but that is paid out of general obligation bonds, and the County is paying for that." Commissioner Garrett stated "that's an interesting point, when Orange-Alamance came into being and built a dam between Lake Orange and Hillsborough, so before the water can get to Hillsborough, it has to go through Orange-Alamance Lake.........(cannot decipher) "but all of this as we have talked about gets very....." Mr. Howes interrupted "that's why I think the prospects of changing water between the system of Cane Creek and the system of theirs' there ought to be treated with considerable care, because we really are chang- ing watersheds." Mrs. Garrett added "yes, Mayor Cates said that to the effect that if there's an emergency, that's one thing, but if you are building Seven Mile Creek for southern Orange than they might object to that." Chairman Morris asked "is there any other potential location in the County, the Commissioners are looking on to supply coater, other thane. Seven Mile Creek and Cane Creek?" Mr. Gattis replied. (cannot decipher) An unidentifiable person asked "am I hearing you say that the Authority will have the control of Gane Creek, or would it be......" Mrs. Garrett said "I'm not sure I understand." Commissioner Gustaveson stated, "I agree that I think there would be "(cannot decipher). Mrs. Garrett stated "what I was saying was it seemed to me that it's not in the best interest of everything we have all been working for in the County to locate an industry out Hwy 54, and say look, we built that reservoir, we're going to decide to put the water there, that's what I was saying.....2 think it should be through the process of the Authority." Gen. Hurow asked Mrs. Garrett "does the fact that the name of the Authority is 'Orange' draw a picture in your mind that this is the vehicle to administer water or control of water resources in the County behalf of the Commissioners. Is that something you are not sharing with me." Chairman Garrett replied "when we talked about this years ago, we didn't put any boundaries on the Authority because we thought, well, who knows what the future is going to bring. How do we know what is going to be twenty years form naw and what will be the best mechanism for delivering water and sewer, twenty years from now. So we did not put any boundaries in -- to go into Chatham or to go into Durham, whatever the people think is the best system, but it's not on behalf of the Commissioners:" Commissioner Gustaveson stated "I think that's a good question, because when you list all the things we are involved or will be involved in, that at some point we are going to have to get into some kind of major water resource commission for the County and we list 201 and 208..." General Hurow interrupted "Norm, listen to Shirley's question and this is what started my head thinking in this direction - the kinds of problems and they are not passed yet, complex problems that one encounters when you leave apolitical jurisdiction and start chopping up things to fit, say geography, this is nothing to do with political boundaries. You begin to suffer because you get half of an area that's included and some that doesn't and you figure out who is paying what taxes, this one more than that one and this fellow pays differently from someone else, but a least you stay within a County, it has a reasonable chance of success because we all belong to the same club. I think Shirley is very correct to raise the issue of the complexities of 201 faces, because it does jump across boundaries and political subdivisions and causes all sorts of problems." Braxton ~'oushee asked "when we start talking about 201 and 208 haw is the water quality going to be affected by what the Cane Creek residents are going to be continued business out there, dairy farming, or what have you. Or will there be any affect at all?" Mrs. Garrett replied "well, that's one of the things~~we were very concerned about and Art wanted Mr. Waters to answer that. Mr. Waters replied "I can't answer precisely what's going to happen five years from now when there are new regulations to tell what the fertilizers can be and this sort of thing. All T can say is that three years ago with the stream reclassification, Cane Creek was up' to water standards and it is still being sampled and is there now. A11 I was trying to say was that whatever whey were doing must be O'Ii now, 2 still don't know and I really don't have that crystal ball to say what going to happen five years from now. I'm sorry, I wish I did, but I couldn't answer the question the other night." Shirley Marshall asked "if the County could come and help with the water supply and sewer supply, as we are doing with the Orange Water- 5ewer Authority, if these governmental regulations came down and they are going to be a.~.law for all the people, is the County going to feel that it is all ra~ght to help them out and the structures they have to build under the new regulations?" Mrs. Garrett said "do you mean that if a dairy industry had to do certain things to comply with the fact that it was located close to a .....~~ Ms. Marshall said "yes, that's right." Mrs. Garrett stated, "I think it's something that everyone would be interested in working with. Now I don't know what the regulations weuld be. For too long I think people have.l~ooked at land and they see it is vacant and if there's not skyscrapers on it, they say well it's there for whatever you can plant on it and forget that as it was raised the other night, and I think we are all well aware of, that the dairy industry is a very important industry and you take that considera- tion into account." Ms. Marshall stated "that's right. The flow can't come into the streams. It has to be diverted someway and I think it's going to be expenses for tha dairy farmers to construct these. And if all the County is willing to build the reservoir out there, then it seems to me that it might be reasonable that they would help with the cost that is necessary to keep the water pure." Commissioner' Pinney stated "you are talking about generally bet- ween $20,000 to $30,000 far sediment ponds per barn, and yes I am willing to help because I don't want to see anybody driven out by a change in regulations." Mr. Pinney continued "another question is, now who is building, the County or the Authority?" Commissioner Garrett stated "I've heard, or we've talked about• the County would be building it. I thing there needs to come out of this meeting a committee, some kind of structures to work on what agree- ment." Mr. Morris inquired if Mr. Pinney was talking about the physical building. "Who is responsible for contracting with the designer, the engineers and the contractors?" Mr. Pinney added "and who goes out to try to work with the people in Cane Creek." The reply was "yes." Mr. Pinney stated "I think this is important and needs to be settled, who's going to do it, but I believe T would do it a little different." Mrs. Garrett stated "one of the problems that we are faced with is the time. Unless the County is going to somehow go ahead and say. we are going to shoulder that risk right now of paying for the survey and paying for whatever you know, if somehow that money is available right now, then that could be answered one way. But the Authority can't wait." Mr. Howes stated "that question is premature, Jan, because the Authority can't wait, it has to proceed. It simply cannot turn back on the course of its own." Commissioner Gustaveson stated "if we work together during the period of the next twa or three months until the referendum, that we would work in parallel and once its clear that the G O money is avail-' able then we could shift to major responsibilities for the County, or they would be the one who would be financially responsibility for this and have some kind of agreement which shifted the present contractors over to County responsibility. It seems to me that the whole operation could be pretty much a parallel kind of operation." Commissioner Garrett stated "I understand what Jan is saying, and I think Jan raises a goad point, if we are going to come out of this meeting tonight agreeing to things being work out, great, but Jan is saying that there are County resources or things..... (this part of the meeting was last in turning the tape) Jan Pinney remarked "if we go out there :and we work with the people and do it and I will take what flack just like anybody else. But if you all go out there and then transfer it to the County, then I and the rest of the Commissioners are not catching our air share of the flack 'to say it that way "'. General Hurow in answer to Mr. Pinney's question stated "I think we all are trying and I think we should plan it together and to as far as we can in this stage which is called planning right now. We are just talking to the people, we are just surveying which is going ahead with financial planning then looking into whatever money is avail- able. This will take a better part of several months and I think this is what we ought to go in tandem and at that point we will determine who is going to be doing that construction, but I see nothing inconsistant with doing it together right now. These very steps which we're out- lined as the ones leading to the construction, pumping and etc. Right now, the talking to the people, the signing, the surveying and all that can be done together with the County in tandem." Commissioner Pinney responded "again, Z say, I think that's fine. But these people that are concerned about that area need to know who it is they are dealing with. Are they dealing with the Commissioners or are they dealing with the Authority. So, if they come to me and say, such and such, then 2 won't have to say to them, it's the Authority, and then they go over there and you say, no, it's the Commissioners. I think we should know one way or the other." Chairman Garrett stated "they are dealing with the University right now." Ms. Marshall stated "we will have to have a joint planning group as we go into this, particularly on some of the more human problems and I don't see why it wouldn't have to be made up of only County Commissioners and OWSA members. I would think that certain members of the community should .be there. Certainly, in some of the harder immediate problems that will come with displacement, if the County gets resources." Dr. Edward Johnson, of the Orange Grove Community stated, "I want to second what Shirley has said and what Art said too. We in the community, well same of us are violently opposed to the lake and there is a meeting going on tonight to organize some kind of opposition and others of us want to know what you all are doing and hope that you will allow us to provide our own suggestions and imput into the decisions that are made. There are several of us here, who are sitting here de- bating about what the implications are for the Orange Grove Community about who builds the lake and I don't know, it seems to me that right now there seems to be pretty much of a toss up, b.ut there are some con- cerns that we have and one of these is concerning the recreation poten- tial for the lake. I haven't canvassed very widely, but the people I have talked to in Orange Grove are very fearful of a hoard of people who might want to come out and recreate. If they anticipated that there was going to be wide spread use of this land for recreation, then I tYiink they would be meeting the surveyors with shotguns, like was threaten the other night. So I am wondering if there is some difference in this area concerning whether OWSA builds the lake or the County builds the lake. Is there some difference in policy, perhaps in how it will be used in recreation?" Braxton Foushee asked Mr. Morris to "tell them about the recreation area or how it would be controlled." Mr. Morris inquired "you are talking about the resolution that was passed about the entrance to the lake? The only thing we have done is to draft a resolution saying that there would be controlled access to the lake, which would not be from any part of the water edges. Meaning that there would be one or limited numbers of access, controlled access. But 2 think you're talking about a broader recreational use of the area, rather thai+r...just the water." Mr. Johnson replied "we are wondering if you have in mind, say University Lake model, which I think most of the people in Orange Grove think would be of a suitable way of using it. Avery limited way of using it." Mrs. Garrett stated "I feel that the Commissioners would be very sensitive, and I think the Authority would too, but I think the Commis- sioners would be very sensitive to the people in Orange Grove." Dr. Johnson stated "well, one question that I raise is this. If the County builts it, would the Commissioners feel obla.gated then be- cause County monies are paying for it, to make it widely available to all citizens in the County. A pressure that the Commissioners might feel that OWSA wouldn't feel." Mrs. Garrett replied "I think the County's objectives are the same as the Authority's. The primary use of the lake is to protect the quality of water and that its primary function. But if there can be control of access for boating and fishing, then I think that could be planned with the community. I think what Shirley has said is very important. I think it would be great if very early moments that we could set up a committee of citizens working with us to help design and plan the whole project." Ms. Marshall stated "I think we have to find someway for sure. We obviously cannot say that we have worked out the recreation yet, and while we know that the fear which the people always have when we talk about an easement along the stream on people's property, they suddenly feel that 35,000 people in Chapel Hill are going to be walking there all at one time. We know this isn't true, but on the other hand, we know that this is a recreation hungry community and it would be a very attrac- tive facility. One thing, I believe we all would agree on is that we know we are going to have to find someway to keep the private lines involved. That certainly we must control access to the point that other people's lines will not be wandered all aver. Secondly, we don't have all the answers to the pattern." Ms. Marshall spoke on the recreation area of Plum Island in Massachusetts and its controlled access. Jonathan Howes stated "you have to go back to the principle purpose and the principle purpose of this reservoir is for water supply and not for recreation. Because of that certain basic restrictions would have to apply. If you are looking at the University Lake model, then you are probably Close to what will happen out there. I thank the intensity, the control of recreation as it occurs out there as at happens is more like what going to happen in this area." General Hurow stated "as we were talking about Allen's presentation, the words, 'the University Lake Model', I was opposed to and I said, please don't say anything that going to be modeled after the University, and that the reason." Mr. Johnson said surely people will understand the difference between the University and University Lake. Mrs. Garrett stated "another thing the County would be doing is sur- veying and talking to people about Cane Creek is that at the same time we are talking about Cane Creek tonight, we are also having a projected re- port and a closer up-date in the intensifying of Seven Mile Creek. There seems to be an obvious advantage to doing them both. Whether they are built at the same time, they can be on the same bond issue and looking at them both together, ghat might be practical, ar the thing to do in one area, might not be iri the other. I think that broader picture may be able to bring out a better .......' Chairman Mortis asked if any of the other visitors had anything that they wished to say. An unidentified voice asked "suppose the County votes not to pay for this proposed lake and it goes back to OWSA, or whatever, O'K, then in years to come if there is regulations put on the dairy farmers, will OWSA be willing to take up some of the slack in paying for these sedimentation pools or whatever that is going to cost, no telling how much in the future?" Mr. Morris replied "I couldn't answer that. The only thing I know is that OWSA will be very concerned about that. OWSA will feel a finan- cial responsibility, or whether it will urge the good officers of the County. I don't know, and I don't think anyone could answer that from the Authority. I am quite sure that the Authority is very much concerned and wants to see the right thing done. Now whether it could do it itself or try to get the County to do it, I don't know:" Chairman Garrett stated "if the general obligation bonds referendum should fail, I think that would not mean the County Commissioners would not feel an obligation to the citizens. Whether hardships come up or whatever other way. I think that is something that we owe to the citizens:' Mr. Morris stated "you have many reasons for responsibility, health, land use, Clear Water Act and all these other legitimate concerns of the County Commissioners." Commissioner Gustaveson stated "sure, not knowing quite what kinds of regulations are going to grow out of, in terms of actual capital expenditures we would be required to implement the 208, that I would assume that at some point - as expenses - there would be some kinds of fund similar to the 201 fund." ... w r General Hurow stated "Norm, 1 am almost certain that by reading what's happening in industry, other than agriculture, this is not very far down the plank, where the farmer will be getting help because of the demands that will be placed on them." Mrs. Garrett added "also Soil and Conservation, I think would work." Mr. Gustaveson inserted "and RC&D, too would probably have funds that would come....We could say that that would be our priority fox con- struction to help with 208 implementation. Commissioner Pinney at this point in the meeting asked to be excused to attend another meeting. Chairman Garrett explained to those present the commitment the County has previously made regarding Seven Mile Creek. Commissioner Whitted stated "the referendum would be held at the same time. inhere waul$ be one referendum for both Seven Mile Creek and Gone Creek. Construction would not necessaxily take place at the same time as Cane Creek would, but.... A question was asked if Seven Mile Creek would be separate. Mr. Howes stated "you have to understand, Seven Mile Creek can't be used for a water supply for southern Oxange. Mrs. Garrett stated "Seven Mile will be for the benefit of the Hillsborough, Efland and Mebane Communities. They do have advantages in planning them together, in xecreation and supplying the total need to the County." Chairman Morris stated "Flo, if the people of the Authority want to move for a decision tonight, we can do so. I think it would be more judicious if we met as an Authority and discussed this very positive experience tonight, before coming to any conclusion. If someone wants to move tonight, that's the democxatic right. However, I think it would be wiser if we met." Mr. Howes stated "I would like to suggest a way that might shorten the process. It seems to me that there has been enough discussion here. The Authority is willing to consider the motion joint development here and we really can't begin to resolve these specific questions until the specific questions are dawn on paper and we begin to see what they are and I don't see how that can be done, except for the staff to begin to develop some proposals. I think it would be appropriate for the County staff, together with our staff in an appxopriate joint committee of same sort to begin the development of these things sa that the details can be hashed out......be brought to the prospective boards. None of that commits either paxty to a course of action. In fact, it seems to me, the Authority's course of action has to remaa.n as it was. Commissioner Gustaveson stated "it seems to me that at some point we need a deadline to begin to move.....(oannot decipher) parparing for a bond issue. I would second what Jonathan is saying. I guess what is needed is to find some mechanism to get this thing going with a very definite time schedule. That we would decide within two weeks....... (cannot decipher) to get machinery in opexation for a bond issue." Ms. Marshall stated "some of the questions cannot be asked until the actual level of the lake has been decided and the survey has been done. So many of the questions the people have will depend on that the actual;...:.. " . Mr. Howes inserted "I think we ought not to get.....too accelerated time schedule. I don't feel that anything that the Authority is now doing cannot be in someway compensated for if we decide we wanted to go with the County development course at some point in the future. I think Shirley is right. There are a lot of questions that are going to be answered by the survey in the setting of lines and stuff out there that I would think would be impoxtant for us to know as we proceed. So I don't while I feel a sense of same urgency, I don't feel we ought to let ourselves be stampeded." Mr. Morris stated "I think we can move relative fast to a place where we can have an agreement on principles involved. The basic con- cepts I think. In other words, whether we jointly say let's go ahead full steam working out these things which we need to decide on." Mr. Howes added "I say this not to be antagonistic. I think this is a very serious issue for the voters of the County. I will stand by what I said in the beginning. I will also say that I have to can- cider my first obligation to the Authority, and that obligation is to provide a water supply to the people of this area, and everything that is done, in terms of preparing this agreement will have to be done to protect that basic responsibility aud, therefore, I would say that I think that as we proceed with development of these joint...., if that objective is not utmost, and if it is abrogated, in anyway, then I would have to vote against it. I say this not to be antagonistic or sugges- tive that I don't think we can make it. I do think we can make it, but questions have been raised tonight that to same extent can't be answered tonight and won't be answered until we see what an agreement looks like on paper." Shirley Marshall stated "I thing that's very true, John, but T think very good positive things might happen if we begin to have at least a small committee composed of some members of the Orange Water and Sewer Authority, the County Commissioners and some of the residents to look at the human side of what we are doing. There is no doubt that there are County resources that can help with some of these problems that we simple can't have and never will have." Mr. Howes "I don't disagree with that at all. 1 think we can take these steps forward and proceed with the joint planning of this, but I don't think we are in a position, on either side, if we are near, to enter into final prepared type agreements." Chairman Garrett stated "2 don't think we are either, but 2 think we can begin. If we are sure that the. Authority has to move, as I know we must, that the other resources and the way that things are. Plans need to be made together." Chairman Morris stated that the Authority would have a brief meeting and .that the Authority would be in touch with the Commissioners and Mr. Johnson and his-colleagues also. He stated further that he had found the meeting very positive and meaningful. The meeting was then adjourned. Flora R. Garrett, Chairman Betty June Hayes, Clerk ORANGE COUNTY HOARD OF COMMISSIONERS MONDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 1976 The Orange County Board of Commissioners me{t in regular session on Monday, November 1, 1976, at 10:00 a.m., in the Commissioners' room of the Courthouse in Hillsborough. Members present were Chairman Flora Garrett, Commissioners Norman Gustaveson, Jan Pinney, Richard Whined and Norman walkeX. Members absent were none. Others present were S. M. Gattis, County Administrator, Neal Evans, Finance Director, A. B. Coleman, Jr., County Attorney and Betty June Hayes, Clerk to the Hoard. The Chairman referred to Item 1 on the Agenda: Persons not on this agenda having business to transact with the Board of Commissioners should make their presence known at this time. Chairman Garrett recognized Mrs. Josephine Barbour.