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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMinutes - 19750313( u!"'~"~8 MINUTES OF THE ORANGE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS Thursday, March 13, 1975 The Orange County Board of Commissioners met on Thursday March 13, 1975 at 8:00 p.m., in the Commissioners Roam of the Courthouse in Hillsborough, N. C. A11 members were present. S. M. Gattis, County Administrator; Neal Evans, Fiscal Officer; A. B. Coleman, Jr., County Attorney; and Betty June Hayes, Clerk were present. Ralph Lewis, former Chairman of the Person-Orange-Chatham Area Mental Health Board; Curtis W. Bradsher, County Commissioners of Person County; Gordon White and Henry Dunlap, County Commissioners of Chatham Gounty; Brit Parker, Kathy Townsend, and Sherry Stracner, representatives of the Orange County Development Center; Martha Brockwell of the Workshop Center; Gretchen Dawson, Alice Meyers, and Rollis Pinkerton of the Mental Health Center; Henry S. Walker and Melvin Whitfield, former members of the Orange County Board of Commissioners; Evelyn Murdock, representative of the Volunteer Group of the Area Health Board; Pat Walton, Director of the Mental Health Program; Pat Webb, Director of the North Central Region; Ruth Lott, Director of the Chapel Hill Dffice of the Mental Health Center; Marie Williams, a nurse; and Silas Coley, Interior Director of the Mental Health Center were present. The purpose of this meeting was to review the Grant Application that had been filed by the Person-Orange-Chatham Area Mental Health Board. Chairman Garrett presented an Agenda to the members of the Board. Commissioner Pinney moved for the adoption of the Agenda as ,presented. The Board adopted the Agenda. Chairman Garrett requested that Pat Walton speak on Item 1 on the Agenda. THIS IS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT Item l: History and involvement of the staff of Area Mental Health Board in the Grant application for renovationg building on Northside School property by Pat Walton. Chairman Garrett requested Pat Walton to speak on Item 1. Pat Walton stated, "As I have been able to recollect and tp recapture history of the whole involvement of the Northside property by the Mental Health Center, goes back to about July of 1973, at which time the conversation I had with Sam Gattis, he mentioned that this property might be available to the County by the School Board; and asked if the Mental Health Center might possible be interested in this property as a possible site; and at that time we had just learned there might be construction funds or renovation funds availble and I told him we'd like to pursue this. Shortly, there after, we alerted the Regional Office of our interest in apply8ng for construction funds about the middle of July of 1973 and there is a certain procedure that has to be followed in arranging for the application process. We had a visit from (Unable to decipher), representative of the Region Office and Sally Cameron, representing the Grant Management Section in Raleigh who visited on September 14, in 1973 and discussed the proposed renovation and seemed at that time to be agreeable that it was feasible far us to call in a consulting architect from Facility Services Division of Human Resources. So Ray Sawyer was called and came in on October 24th, and I think Sam and I went over the building with him at that time, and his purpose was to look at the building tv see if it was a feasible pro- ject; which in his reply to us in a letter at the end of October, it seemed reason- able for us to continue. The first mention o£ the possiblities of the construction was made to the Area Board in November of 1973. At this time we told them of this possib].ity and asked them, the Area Board members, to discuss it with their local Boards of County Commissioners. As it turned out, the 1973-74 funds for construct5on were not going to be available tv us because o£ our priority. Our priority was 3. (Unable to decipher this statement) they only had funds to fund ppriorities 1 and 2. So we slipped to priority 3 and the present fiscal year of '74-'75 we became priority 1 and we felt that there was reason to continue with the grant application procedure. We worked with Jim Webb, who was the original architect of that building, and who did some preliminary drawings for us which we had to submit with our application. The Final application went into Raleigh on September of '74 and we received notification in December of '74. Again at various Board meetings throughput '74 this was dis- cussed with the Area Board. Mr. Lewis signed the Grant application at that time. In December of 1974, we received notification that the Grant had been awarded and at that Area Board meeting, that month, we appointed a committee of the Area Board mem- bers to come up with some reasonable way .to alocate the charges or the local cost for the State match, the State matching of funds, tp the three County areas. It had been agreed that Person and Chatham, who are already contributing the overhead and rental in place of the Administrative Offices would participate in some way. The amount to be determined by this committee from local funds. That's pretty much where we are right now." Item 2: Mr. Ralph Lewis, past Chairman of the Orange-Person-Chatham Mental Health Board, to review the action and involvement of that Board concerning their interest in the property and the Grant application. Chairman Garrett recognized Ralph Lewis, former Chairman of the Area Mental Health Board. Mr. Lewis stated, 'M rs. Walton has stated the facts as they occurred. I wish to go over what she said. Because there has bean no engineering drawings there was no way that the Area Board or even the Administratorof the Orange-Person-Chatham Mental Health could determine the cast for each county. In the Grant application she used an educated guess as to what each County could come up with -- now, as Mr. Bradsher and I as Commissioner representatives at that time, when this first came up we felt that it was our responsibility as well as the other Commissioner members on the Area Board, to inform their Boards of what was taking place, of what was happening. Since there was no formal request for the funds, we took no formal action, but the Person County Board of Commissioners was aware that this project was underfoot and that they would be called on for some money with the definite amount to be determined. I believe the letter raised some charges about whether I was aware of the certain legal re-gairements of this Grant. I assure you that I am not. we have a very capable Administrator that is aware of the procedure and I am sure who follows all procedure but X would like for you to keep in mind one factor, that is, we are trying to dovetail the approval of the Grant application with the availability'of the building hoping that the two would come together at the same time. As ix turns out, the Grant money is available but the building isn't. That's where we stand right now." Item 3: Role of the County, both in his involvement and the Board of County Commissioners in the Northside School property, by Mr. Sam Gattis. Mr. Gattis stated, "Madam Chairman, 2 will have to do this from memory because I don't have any real documentation. Sometime after the fire at the'school and 2 don't really know how long, we got feelers, 1 suppose, form the Chapel Hill School Board to the effect that they would be interested in making th~.s property available to the County if we had any use for it. This must have been in early 1973 or about because from time to time, we had dis- cussed with the Health Department the possibliity of them leaving their site on University Campus and we had the Health Department look at the facility. It is my recollection that they felt that the old Orange County Training School building was too far gone and beyond that I am not sure whether they felt the newer burned building was too large oz not. There wasn't any great interest on the part of the Health Department in going to the site. Then according to some notes that Mrs. Walton has in July of '73, we had a meeting at that site with some representatives of the State. Obviously, we had spme contact prior to July to arrange this meeting and I don't really know how long that was before July of '73, but as two people from the State came over. One was with the Mental Health Agency and one was probably not but was from the Department of Administration or an Engineer, whose function being to look at the building and see if there was any possibility that it might be prac- tical to salvage it. This report, back to Mrs. walton, did come to us indicationg that it was a practical thing to do. This was in the summer of, well, it was really done, according to her notes, in the late Fall of '73. It was my understanding, at that time, that there was no monies available from the State. They had a precedent of providing money in this cater gory, but it had all been committed. Then that's about the extent of the involvement. bast - year at Budget time when the Mental xealth people presented their Budget, I did query Mrs. Walton on the point while we were at a Commissioners' meeting one night to review their _ sudget, whether they had anything in their request for renovation of this building. Mrs. Walton replied, as T recall, that no, it was not in that Budget request that they felt that project was still sometime in the future and that it would be more appropriate that this request be made the fiscal year that is to come up in the next few months. That's about the extent of the involvement that the County has had directly (Unable to Decipher) several occasions, we have had some negotiations with the Chapel Hi11.5chool Board over the possi- ble'trat~sfer of -the property; and that's approximately the extent of our involvement." Item 4: History ox the Regional and State involvement in the Grant Application by Mr. Pat Webb, Regional Director. Chairman Garrett recognized Pat Webb, Regional Director of the North Central Region. Mr. Webb stated, "I have served in the capacity for the last twelve months as your Regional Director far the North Central Region. This is a sixteen county region, called North Central Region. Prior to that, I was AsSj.stant Director for Administration, in the Central office in Raleigh, working as an Assistant to Dr. Zazzar. It was my responsibility of one of the many that 1 had, to supervise the Construction Grant Program. The name, Mrs. Sally Cameron, that was one of the participants, that came a yeaz or so ago; that Mrs. Walton referred to was directly under my supervision. So I am aware of the complete process that has gone into the present Grant that has been allocated by the State to the Orange-Person-Chatham Mental Health Center. The Grant was confirmed by the State in December as indicated in a letter by Dr. Zazzaz which you have on record, T believe. The initial process as explained by Mrs. Walton is accurate and is correct. Originally, she did not know the program here did not rank in the tog priority for two of the Construction Grants, therefore, the request from this program was carried over into 1974. Considering the request in July of 1974, we then initiated efforts to look at the application and to have it submitted. We had had, at that time, had an intent filed with the Division of Mental xealth Services. So we followed up work with the local program. Following that, the actual application was submitted in September of '74 and was authorized by the State in December. It does authorize 5350,000 in the State funds of an appropriation of three m111ion dollars that was given for this purpose by the State Legislature. It does requier 15% local funding. We have had three such grants in thin region in the last two years. The second one just went under bids last week and we are anxious to get under way with this - one. The funds that have been obligated fbr this program were, I feel, correctly done by the, or correctly submitted by the Area Board. The Area Board is o.ir authority that we relate to. The applications were submitted by them. I think as to any question of commit- ment from County Commissioners that has been satisfactory with us to come after we give you the letter authorizing the Grant and I feel that the sequence of events that are occuzing now are in order and we, certainly, support the approval of the Grant that has been awarded and we hope that we can help you get underway quickly because the Grant, State funds, will revert if we don't spend them during the fiscal year. We must get the funds obligated. ~~o 480 Item 5: Other interests, comments, and involvement by members of the audience. Chairman Garrett stated, "There.might be other persons in the audience who have direct knowledge or some additional information that they would like to speak to personally concerning the involvement of themselves or knowledge they may have about the Grant process Are there any persons who want to speak? Would you please stand and state your name? pr. Silas Coley, Interior Director of the Mental Health Centel for the three county areas, presented the following remarks: "My comment had to do mole with need than background. I think that's been adequately covered in writing and in the descriptions of our transactions. We, at this time, have reached an impoint beyong which we cannot provide more services without more working space. We currently use our rented office space in Chapel Hill continually. Each week day, two evenings per week, every office is filled. That's about all we can afford in terms of secretarial coverage. We have had to forego meetings with other representatives of other Agencies in promoting promotion programs because we can't offer the meting space and do our com- mitment to patient care, at the same time, space available. we are scattered around in borrowed and rented space in seven different locations in Chapel xi11. In nine different ones in Orange County alone, and in fourteen different ones in three counties. This makes for a difficult problem in coordination. We feel that a certain amount of this decentralization is appropriate; but in the instance of the leements in Chapel Hill, it is actually detrimental to our smooth coordination of services. We were lucky to get the lease that we did at the time we did. Some eight thousand square feet at little over a $1.00 per square foot. I think is wildly unrealistic to ever think we can ever get it renewed at that price. At the same time we have spent about all the money we have available for rent. The only monies that we are allowed to spend for rent are those other than State matching funds and Federal matching Grants, and so we are dependent on the counties and on direct collections to fund working space. This is money that is spent, it goes to the landlord which in this case is the Merchants' Association, we would be saving not merely the cost of rent if we had a more adequate building. We would be able to continue to resume or expansion of both direct and indirect services and we would also be able to use money that we are now spending on rent for other programs and it would then be eligible for matching by State matching funds,.also by any subsequent Federal Grants that we are able to obtain. 5o in effect, we could be bringing in more money on a continual basis to the County. We are pointing out that the one significant figure and should help the local economy in this year in which something seems to be especially needed. So rather than a commitment for expenditure we feel that this really is an opportunity for an investment which will constitute definite savings and even gain for the county as a whole financially as well as in the terms of human services that we would like to provide through the center. I would reiterate one thing, and that.'s that our commitment from the State for construction funds is simply an authorization to proceed. Nothing is irreversible at this point, indeed, we are feeling somewhat anxious to obtain further approval and action of the County, so that we'll actually ~ be able to get this money and proceed with our expansion. That's all I have to say. Thank you very much." Chairman Garrett inquired, "Are there any other remarks from members of the audience? 2 see two former County Commissioners sitting out there. Do you have anyting you want to say, Mr. Henry?" Henry Walker replied, "I just had some other business and I thought 2 would run in and see if I could learn anything." chairman Garrett state, "Then if there are na further questions or comments from the audience we will now hear from the members of the Hoard of Commissioners who may have comments and questions they wart to raise at this point." Chairman Garrett then recognized Commissioner Walker. Commissioner Walker stated, "2 would like to say in going over the history, Pat was very, very accurate; but I want to bring out a few points that was sort of, probably wasn't recognized. I would like to go over this same history the way I see it. On February 18th, I brought in the attention of this Board the Orange- Person-Chatham Mental Health Center Area Board did on September 12, 1974 file a Notification to the Clearinghouse of an Intent to apply far assistance for the proposed zenovation of the abandoned school prope=ty. This application under Section 5, Subsection B, appears to have committed Orange County in the amount of $50,000.00. This particular item has given cause for grave concern to the Heard. They are at a loss to explain how this commitment could be made without .the consent and knowledge of the Hoard. A pre-application.was approved by the Triangle J council of Government on November 20th, without first being approved by this Board of County Commissioners. In fact, it has never been formally brought before this Board for official action and my knowledge is that the members of this Board agreed informally to set aside this money. The members serving on the Board at this time, as of September 12, 1974 were Melvin Whitfield, Henry Walker, Norman Walker, Mrs. Garrett, and Mr. Whitted. It must be clear, made clear to the North Central RegXOn Office that $50,000.00 has not been set aside in the '74,-'75 Budget. I have in my possession all the minutes of the. Mental Health Area Board that weak of this project and that's November 29, 1974; January 22, 1974; October 31, 1974; and Aecember 10, 1974; and the only ting in there is just some statement from Mrs. Walton to the Board. No action. Mrs. Walton and Mr. Whitted stated on February 18th, 1975, at the Orange County Board meeting that the Area Mental Health Board did approve $50,000.00, and Mrs. Walton quoted from a. Statute that the Area Board did have the authority to do this. The minutes of the Orange County Hoard of Commissioners will substantiate this statement. In talking with Melvin Whitfield, which was a member of the Mental Health Board at the time, to setlasxdeh$50 000 OOemember the Board ever taking formal action or even agreeing s _..- .. -._ ~.__ __._.__~_ ~..r_ ___.. ___.___ _.. ____._T~._..____,R.~~_._ _____._.--------- _-- Below I have a cppy of a letter from Dr. N. P, Zarzar and Pat. Webb. 1 think we are all aware of what is said. It said this award is made with the understanding that 561,765.OD, of local match has been se:t aside tp match State funds and it goes on to congratulate the staff, the Area Board, and the Commissioners for setting aside this money, of course, all of you, I think, are familiar with what is in the letter. I'll read it if anybody would like. Then copied from the Minutes of the Orange-Person-Chatham Mental Health Area Hoard on December 1Dth of 1975, the letter of approval came on December 2nd. On December 10, Mr. Lewis reported that approval had been granted tp proceed with the renovation of the Northside School property. He asked that a committee be designated to determine the contribution from each of the counties involved. That was after the Grant had been awarded. Then, of course, he names a committee, and I would like to say to the North Carolina Division of Mental Health Services, in my opinion, that the pro- cedural guidelines set out by the North Carolina Division of Mental Health Services has been violated and in my possessior_, I have a copy bf the Procedural Guidelines; also I have in my possession, a copy of the formal application and under Facilities Information, on page 3, Item k, it says applicant's financial resources applicable tp this facility. They say they have cash in negotiable or non-negotiable securities o£ $61,765.00. Here we assume $50,000.00 for Orange county and $i1,765.D0 for Person and Chatham Counties. Under B it says indicate where applicant has a fee simple title ar leasehold interest. The applicant indicates it has leasehold interest, It says under C if the applicant has leasehold interest, give the following information: method .of lease 'pr other State interest - '25 years', number of years. to run - '25 years' they ask, is the lease renewal? They say 'yes'; and it says current appraised value of the land? They say $100,000. Annual rent. They say they are renting it for $1.00 per year. Its says include copy of lease agreement. They say npt available at this time, will forward if needed, This indicates to me they are leading the State people to believe they have this stuff i.n hand. We .all know that there is no such lease agreement. Page 7, Item 16, in the formal application the applicant gives assurance that Part A, number one, it . possess legal authority to apply for and receive grant pr loan and to finance and construct the proposed facility and that a resolution pr motion to so acL has been .duly adopted or passed as an official act by the applicant's governing Board. The Area Mental Health's Hoards minutes reflect no such thing. Number 2, the Applicant further gives assurance that sufficient funds will be available to meet the nan-State share of the cost of construction of the facility and that sufficient funds will be available when the construction is completed to assure effective operations and maintenance of the facility for the purpose for which constructed. It is understandable why the North Centsal-Region would approve this application, believing this to be true informantion. I'd like to say to the Orange County Board of Commissioners my opinion that no money can be set aside without formal action of this Board. I'd rather say to this Hoard, had it been an agreement that we fund this program this Board knows full well that this money is not available in the '74-'75 Budget as the application indicated. This Hoard should be aware that we cannot justify setting aside $50,00.0.OO.for matching Grant money when we don't awn the property which we are planning to renovate, that will ' cost anothe]E $12Q000.00 that we don't have. I would like to ask the Division of Mental Health to rescind this application until we can get pur feet on the ground. Let this project be put on the priority list we have and to be funded when it reaches the top of the list." Chairman Garrett inquired, "Mr, Walker, is that all you intend to say at this time?" She continued, "I had asked Sam earlier to give sort of a background because I felt like he was an impartial observer back here and was not involved in all this, and I would like to recollPCt from my memory certain things that happened, or that I believe happened that irnrplved every member of the Board of County Commissioners and that is the old Board. Mr. walker was involved, and it involved Mr. Henry Walker, and Mr. Melvin Whitfield. The notes that T have, indicate the first action, that.I have, the discussion of the Northside School property took place on July 12., 1973, - when it states in the minutes that Commissioner Flpra Garrett asked Dr. .Coley if he felt it was worth investigating and that there were State funds available for con- struction and/or renovation of facilities for the Mental Health Program. The Board requested that the Mental Health representatives pursue the matter of securing funds for space to house the Mental Health Center. I believe in order of events, the next thing that happened was at budget time as Mr. Gattis stated, we asked about matching Funds being in this current year's. budget and we were told that the precise amount of funds and what wean necessary would not be needed for this year's budget and would probably be epming next year. That was done at.budget time. The next thing in order of events as I remember, is that the Health Planning Council of which -Henry Walker is a member at that time approved the grant application; with 561,000'.00 clearly stated in the grant "local money" it was approved by the Central Health Planning Council and then it went pn to Region J. Now, Region J sent out two notices, first they felt they had to have it. in quickly, since the application was sent by Mental xealth to the Clearinghouse. They felt that they must respond quickly, so they sent out the first notice on October 8th to the Board Chairman, Mr. Norman Walker, to myself, as a delegate of the Triangle J Council pf Governments and to Mr. Sam Gattis the principle for Orange County. And what it says in here is the purpose of this procedure is to guarantee that local governments are aware of projects that may be pf concern to them. Those receiving the notice of copies are most welcome to react, but have no obligations to do so nar have any red tape recuirements to complete. We were asked to react. We were sent the application and the $61,000.00 received by Mr. Walker and myself October Bth, but Region J did not Cite it fpund it was not necessary to-dp it without a formal Board meetinc. Sp they sent out another notice of the attempt that this wo~~d come .to the A--95 Review Process at the regular meeting of the Council of Governments, November 20th. Again receiving A-95 and review notification, the Chairman, Mr. Gattis, and myself, concerning this project with the 561,000.00, November 6th, I think it was November, it was not in the minutes,_Npvember 19th which was I think the Board meeting at, I may have brought it up sooner, but I can't find it anywhere in the minutes, but I officially brought up to the Board of Cpunty'Commissioners that consideration ~ would take place at the November 20th, Region J Council of Governments meeting and I discussedaath that time what I thought was the pressing concern because T felt that all `~ ~~ of us were that local money would at some time have to be appropriated. And what I discussed was. were we interested in the total nine acres or were we interested i in only half of it, because Chapel Hill was replying to the Council of Governments notification by saying that they wanted some of the land for recreational space. The Board of County Commissioners instructed me to go the the Council of Governments meeting and say that w8 indeed wanted the who18 nine acres. I did that November 20th, and the soard of Region J approved the request stating that we were applying for the grant, sometime before this November 19th meeting, and was a committee ap- pointed by the Board of County Commissioners; Mr. Sam ~atti.s and Mr. Norman walker to pursue some kind of agreem8nt or lease or whatever, for the Northside School property. This committee was formally in action, I feel that every member, by Mz. Whitfield, and Mr. Walker, Mr. Whined, and myself, all of us were aware of this grant; we knew that it was being asked for and we also knew that local money was indeed part of the downward toad towards the procedure." (Comments between Chairman Garrett and Commissioner Walker were deleted from the minutes at this point.) Commissioner Gustaveson asked, "I wonder if I could address soma question to Mr. Webb? This deals with the application, I wonder if you could go over your understanding of the application again? I heard in your comments that the appli- cation, the form was correctly submitted and that is your understanding of it?" Mr, Webb replied, "Yes Sir." Mr, Gustaveson asked, "Could you briefly comment on the nature of appli- cations from other units, other Boards? This is a kind of problem there, I think as Mr. Lewis said you would be trying to dovetail a number of different things at on time. Namely, this Hoard was responsible to negotiate for property. And 2 think that you, or that the Mental Health Hoard, assumed in good faith, that this Board was proceeding to negotiate for property; and se they hoped that the property would be leased or purchased about the same time of the grant. Is this the common practice that Area Boards have to try to dovetail their applications with a series of other kinds of negotiations? It's an understandable kind of thing that you may have some items in a grant application that is intentional good faith," Mr, Webb stated, "I have always found bureaucracy to work in Raleigh you know to such an extent, that its nice to see it working in reverse here, And usually we can't get the State or Federal money, we always have plenty of local money or donated money; so 2'm glad to be here and I will answer any questions you ask as far as.the intent of the application, it's accurate. If you will look at the notifications of the Clearinghouse, that was one of the first steps that occurr8d in September; and it reads Notification to Clearinghouse of Intent to Apply. We had many discussions prior to this with your Area soard. The Area Board by law can acquire and hold pr property in its own right. So its proper that it was the applicant for this pro- ject, Following the intent, of course, the application itself, we then asked that it gave initial approval and said proceed with the final application. That's a lengthy document. 2 don't know how many have seen it. First, there's an initial application and then the final application and we have right much in that process. In this case when we sent the award of the grant it says in response to the request made by the orange~Person-Chatham Mental Health Center. There was a copy of this letter sent to Ralph Lewis as your Area Board Chairman. The law that establishes Area Boards, states there is a purpose behind it having it require a County Commissioner on Area Boards. That purpose is so that they will be aware of what kind of commitmer_ts are being made. If there are commitments at that time or they will be informed if it's just a matter of information and I don't disagree with any of the comments as you see them but if you had been involved in the process as most of us. were through th8 two years, I think you would see everybody we tried to keep informed of what we were doing,' We 10oked at property. We talked about• the possibilities of leases. I felt it was all done in good faith and to ask the State to rescind the appli4ati:on - I would - as Dr. Coley said, the commi^~ment is not here. This is what we're all seeking, is a commitment for some local funding, in Order to get you the $350,000,00. There was a request to continue funding for construction €rom the present Legislature for next year, This did not even get out o£ Human Resources. The economic impact, the funds are not that plentiful, we prpbably won't even have additional funds for many things that we have going, so 2 would say we have money in hand if it doesn't come to Orange-Person~hatham Mental Area Health Center then it may well revert and I would hate to see the citizens o£ this county lose and in support of what the County Commissioners certainly have done in their support of the local Mental Health Center, I think Dr, Coley s point is well made and I hope you all heard it and that is that presently the State cannot use matching monies to support your rental expense but here's a chance to get eighty five percent matching, much higher than your ordinary matching, to build a building or to renovate one, howev8r you so choose. The Area Board has given you suggestions to d8ai with, so I hope you wo..ld see that as an alternative, as a choice you may never get again and certainly will not get in two years because the Budget that the Legislature is now considering is for 1975-1977. So any new applications for funding would have to be looked at again and set a new priority after 1977, if there should be money made available." Commissioner Gustaveson asked, "So as you see things, from the State perspective, that relation to this grant that there was no sense that the State was misl8ad on this application?"' Mr. Webb replied, "No, we fully expected to get local funding, meaning County Commissioners, whoever was going to own the building. As you see, you haven't resolved that yet. That once the application and we could giv8 assurance to the Area Board that the State has awarded the funds - now we want the assurance of what ~~3 you are going to coo with it. We needed when we said this in December to be able to start moving. There are other applications already having tentative approval that could be dealt with and considered by the State. There is one in this region. The rest are out of this region." Commissioner Gustaveson inquired, "could you also then answer the question, that at the meeting where these charges were made that Commissioner Walker indicated that he had a conversation with Mrs. Cameron and that it was her explanation that the reason that the priority Grant went from two to one is because they had read in the application that the Orange County Commissioners had agreed to put in 550,000.00 and so that was the reason that it jumped from three to one on'the priority list? This was a charge that was brought out and 2 would like to have you speak to this." Commissioner Walker stated, "This was my summation, Norm, it wasn't what I said Pat ca~neran said." Commissioner Gustaveson replied, "This was the way the charge came out. Tt sounded as if or it was summarized as if this was the reason the State moved it up on the Priority List. This was the reason the State moved it up: on the Priority List was because the State assumed the money had been appropriated. This is what you were saying?" commissioner Walker answered, "Right." (Commissioner Walker, commissioner Gustaveson, and Pat webb all were speaking at this time. Unable to decipher comments other than the fact that Commissioner Walker clarified that it was Sally Cameron, not Pat Cameron). Pat Webb stated, "I, of course, was not a participant in that conversation. 2 cannot see unles it's just somewhat eu: ofcontext with everything else she might have been saying about the whole process. As 2 recall there were some fifteen ap- plications that we were reviewing at the time we settled on the eight that did get approved. There were two in North Central; that there was never even anything that verified any kind of county commitment from the discussion that is occurred out of orange County, which is the first time that an application has been challenged and I assume before the people wanted the building and that was the assumption that we probably will in the future ask for some type of resolution or indication that every- body is willing to proceed if it gets approved, but you certainly learn through your mistakes and 2 think this really gets down to a point of do we want the building or do we notA Do we want 5350,000.00 by gibing $61,000.00 or do we not? Dc we want to save some eight to ten thousand dollars per year in rent or do we not? This is the way we see it. I was going to make the other statement that we recently did an area review, it was in December here, for the Orange-Pers®n.-Chatham and one of the most critical issues that came out in that area review; and some of you were present for those two days, was the need for space. Dr. Coley mentioned that when you have seven locations there is no way you can b~ efficient. There is no way that staff can work together as a team. There is no way that patients can feel that comfortable going in and out of seven different locations trying to get services; so I say, you know, you are right to look at your money. You are certainly accountable far it, and to ask questions about it is your right and I say it is appropriate to do so; but T certainly hope you see an opportunity here that you may not get again for a long whi.l-e.. The other pazt of it is 2 would like to give credit to your own Orange-Person-Chatham Mental. Health Center, two of you serve on that 1~rea Board, and in the Area Review we pointed out that the per capita expenditure for this program ranks second in this region. Number one is Alamance-Caswell Mental Health Center with a little more than $15.00 per capita for Mental. Health Services and this area gets thirteen, a little better than $13.00 per capita; but in contrast to all the other programs you are at the very bottom, ninth in this region, in the amount of County tax dollars that ycu put into this program. You rank at about a per tentage of A.9, whereas the average is somewhere ahautthirty or forty per cent. I would hope that you would look at an opportunity to put in a small amount of County funds in order to get a.big chunk of what you are entitle to." Commissioner Pinney stated, "The only thing that Mr. Walker brought up that I am curious about is about the leasehold interest and the twenty-five years and the lease renewable for a dollar a }+ear. Is this aorta normal in a Grant?' Mrs. Walton requested permission to answer the question. Mr. Webb replied, "I would think that so far we have not had an application that involves a lease. 47e have not before had an application that involved three counties, I think you indirectly lead to that while ago, so there is some uniqueness about this particular application." (Cormissioner walker, Pat L.Tebb, and Mrs. Walton toere all speaking at this time; unable to decipher comments.l Mrs..h'alton stated, "When Sam and I *_alked about the acquisition of this property we were talking ir. terms of the county acquiring the propert}= and owning it, holding title to it. Then i-r. *_urr., ,he County would lease the particular building that the Mental Health Center i~ intereste3 in to the Mental Health Board and we were talking ..n terms of a nominal sum, a dollar a year for probably aroe:nd twenty-five years. It would have to be in excess of twenty years in order for the application. So that's where the dollar a year for twenty-fide Rears would not be your arrangement with the School Board, but would be the Mental Health Board's with the County." Commissioner Walker states, "But Pat, you didn't have that such ~.rrangement when you said you did in the application. This is the point 2 think you . ~.~~ Mrs. Walton interupted by saying, "We didn't have the money either. Whenever you make a Grant application you••do it in anticipation of things to rome.. Not only ~ local funds but the arrangements for this partic^~lar building and Sally Cameron and I discussed this on several occasions and she was verb' *!uch aware of the fact that we didn't have a lease on that building. That's why we: didn't send the lease at that time. Sam and I talked about that and it was hoped that by the time everything was approved by the State that the lease would be :available and as Mr. Lewis said it didn't quite dovetail. Commissioner Walker replied, "If what you are saying is true then I don't have any argument, sir. It says here in the application to give assurances and you have given these assurances to the State people. Now if you can make Grants knowing full well that these assurances are not true, then I don't have any argu- ment, six." Pat Webb replied, "The assurances, in regards to our satisfaction, werecpven as representative of the Area Mental .Health Board. we do not come and meet with you as a group." Commissioner Walker stated, "They assure you that they will have funds to match Mrs. Walton triterrupted saying, "They will have or they will have funds available." Commissioner Walker continued, "It says sufficient funds will be available. . Mrs. Walton ntexrupte3 by saying, "Will be available . Mr. Webb stated, "That's what the application says." Mrs. Walton stated, "Will be available, that's what the application says. It doesn't say - are available now." Commissioner Walker asked, "How can you give that assurance before unless this Board has already given you . Mrs. Walton answered, "Because the Area Hoard committed itself to raise the funds. We didn't say that we'd come to the County Commissioners necessarily for all of those Commissioner Walker stated, '.'Dr. Zarzar congratulated the County Commissioners in his letter . Pat Webb stated, "Xeah." Commissioner Walker continued, "For assuring the money. Pat Webb stated, "Can I make one The letter that you refer to as assuring the money, as you correctly read it, does say it has been Get aside. This was the same phrasing that we use in all the awards and it does mean there is an intent to be able to fund the project as I have said the Area Board was !living us that assurance. That same letter did, in the third paragraph, which indicates there is no closure to the entire process as of December 2, It reads that this review indicates that the budget for the project is not sufficient, therefore, either additional local funds must be secured or the project scope reduced. So we knew we still had a great deal of negotiations ahead of us in working with your Mental Health Center to ever come up with the final proposal. Working with your architect, you still won't know what the cost is gonna be until you get some pretty specific preliminary plans by your architect and you wouldn't want to commit an architect to go that far until you had some assurance from us. 5o it took us to get you where you are getting today, X feel." . Commissioner walker stated, "Thank you, but let me say this to you. I'd 7.ike to ask you is this normal everyday procedure in granting applications, granting State money." Mr. Webb answered, "NO, it is not." Commissioner walker states, "I't is not. You would say it is irregular, what has taken place here?" Mr. Webb replied, "I don't call it irregular. I was answering no to the question "Is it everyday procedure' because we don't grant these kind of Construction Grants. It's capital improvement, which is entirely a different appropriation which was given for specific purposes in a limited sum exceeding $350,000.00 and you have to go t`_-rough all the processes your Chairman took you through a few minutes ago, Clearinghouses and the rest. We have ended up for many years dealing with the Federal and State where we did get a combination of funds getting a lot of projects approved, but not funded. So rather than tie up your local funds we knew we had the State funds. We proceeded as fast as we could and from September to December set a new record, which thank good- ness, isn't day to day operations." Commissioner Walker states, "This was not like you would normally go about a normal procedure?" Mr. Webb replied, "Well, this has been the, this procedure that you have been awarded a grant, the applications came in, has worked in oth?r eight applications and they are getting a bit ahead of you because they are already, ?s I was indicating, _...... _.~.._._._.~_______~ •------~_._...._._~ ~euJ going out for bids now. So the procedure here is a little bit different because as T said, it's a three county project; and you were counting locally, the Area F3oard was, to qet some participation from each of the three counties. The other ones there was no question, the County wanted to own the building. It was, you know, something that they really wanted to symbolize the success with Mental health center. In this onethere's three involved, so you know, their job really couldn't begin as I see it, until they got the commitment from the State . Commissioner Walker stated, "O.K., then if this is the way Grants are made then I have no argument:" Mr. Webb stated, "Y would say this is the way the grants is for this program, a three county program. Yes." commissioner Walker stated, "O.K., Thank you. Could Iask you another question?' Chairman Garrett stated, "Yes." Commissioner Walker stated, "As we go back to the minutes of the Area Mental Health Board, saying that they have approved this and Mx. Whitted and Mrs., Walton, they stated at our meeting here, and records will bear me out; that the Area Health and Mental Board did approve this. May I ask why the minutes don't show this?" Mrs. Walton replied, "There was no formal approval given." Commissioner walker stated, "It says in the ( Unable to Decipher 1 application. It assures that approval has been given." Mrs. Walton stated, "Informal approval was given. It was not formalized in a resolution of the Board." Commissioner Walker stated, "But you stated in our minutes that it was, see this is the point I'm saying. (Mrs. Walton and commissioner Walker were both talking at the same time, unable to decipher comments.) Mr. Lewis interrupted,"Mrs. Garrett, Mr. Walker, I would like to make a speech at that point." Mr. Coleman asked,.:."Mr. Lewis, would you please come up so we can hear you clearly for the record, please°" Mr. Lewis stated, "If our Minutes doesn't state that a formal approval was given, I would like to point out that the Minutes also don't state that any Commissioner member of the Area Board objected to it. They were all in agreement with the program." Commissioner Walker stated, "Thank ycu Mr. Lewis Could I read from the thing that says authority to apply for or receive grant or loan and to finance construction program so and its giving assurance that a resolution, motion, or similar action has been duly adopted, so according to the application you're saying you did pass an official act; but you're saying you didn't?• Mr. Lewis replied, "The minutes doesn't state that official action was taken. The AK'ea Board was in agreement and the Commissioner representatives didn't register any dissent, and if they had registered any dissent it would have been in the minutes. So I talked with Mr. Melvin Whitfield about this. Fie was on the Board at the time. And maybe I can recollect what he told me." Commissioner Walker asked, "Mr. Whitfield, could you tell us any recollection that you have of such a motion being passed or any commitment being made?" Mr. Whitfield stated, "As I recall the thing when it was discussed amortgthe Mental Health Board that the staff was making:-an application for this grant; and i£ it was granted than they were going to be looking for some money, but so far as any official action being taken, I don't recall any official action being taken as to what would be done. I know, I recall that it was discussed at one time about the money if it was granted it would have to be prorated between Drange, Chatham, and Person; but there was nothing definite on where it would go; and there was never any official action taken=by the Board for the grant or for the application either one. I was aware and i feel that all the Board here was aware that the Mental Health was making application for the grant; but as far as official action by either Board, the Board of Commissioners or the Area Board, as I recall, it was never taken by either one." Commissioner Walker asked, "Could I ask you one other question? Mr. Wnitted indicated on the eighteenth that the Commissioners was in agreement, that this money was _. being granted. Do you ever remember this Board ever informally agreeing to produce SSO,000;OO for this project?" Mr. Whitfield replied, "N O, T don't recall the Board ever agreeing to finance any part of it; but I think the whole Board was aware that it was in the process and it would be called on to; but as far as us making an agreement that we would give $50,000.00 6r aay amount of money. I don't recall no agreement being made as an official agreement on what would be done on it." r Chairman Garrett stated, "Excuse me, Mr. Gustaveson." Commissioner Gustaveson stated, "Do you recall at Board meetings any objections?" ~~~ Mr. Whitfield answered, "NO, I don't recall any objections to the grant application being made for the grant whatever. Nobody objected to the application being made and all the Area Board members, I'm sure, was aware that there would be some money wanted, but, as for myself, I made no committtient to raise the money, course I didn't say it wouldn't be raised. They were making application because I knew that it was a matter that when the time came then were going to be looking for somE money; and that would be up to the Board of ;.ommissioners. I didn't realize in the application, I didn't know, that these facts had teen sta±ed that the money was aside and all this. I never seen the application myself and I 'sinew nothing, all i knew was that the staff was working on it and making application." Chairman Garrett asked, "Are there any additional questions for Mr. Whitfield?" Thank you. Are therE any additional questions? Mr. Whitted.". Commissioner Whitted replied, "No, I don't think I have any questions. I'd like to make a statement at this point. I've listened v~Ery objectively, of coursE, I have been involved as a Area Mental Health Hoard member and a County Commissioner, maybe z was aware of more things going on than some of the other members and it's a possibility, that I, as an Area Mental Board member, could communicate effectively with this Board, but I think it's been shown that all the Commissioners at that time were aware that the application was being. made and that local money would $ei necessary. I think that the reason this meeting was called was to get some questions answered that was raised at an earlier meeting by Mr. Walker; and I tried to bE objective in listening; I don't think that any well-greased cover-up was taking place; and I think that everybody was stating what they thought, what they felt were the circumstances as they proceeded to make this application and the State in awarding the application. And certainly no one at any point thought they were committing any money, any funds for the County Commissioners and the County Commissioners did not commit any; and as Mr. Webb pointed cut that the sequence of events is, as far as assurance at this point or a letter of intent from the local government about the local money which they said was appropriated and which was the proper .sequence of events. And I think it has been amply pointed out that the A-.95 Review Process with the Council of Governments would be made aware to the members of this Board and the representatives that represent us at the Council of Governments, the County Manager, and also to the Chairman at that time, and no questions were raised then about the 561,D00.00 local match. Again, as I said before, I felt that some misundezstanding probably occurred from lack of proper communication, but I do feel that at this point most of the questions that I have heard raised have been answered at this point; and to ask the State to rescind this grant at this point would not indicate that this Board, and I would not be in favor of doing that .at this .timE. as a me_nber of this Board and a member of the Area Mental Health Board, to do that mould indicate that we are not willing to pro- vide the necessary services. It's been pointed out by Mr. Webb, and I have seen the review from the site visit group and I am furthur aware of the space limitations that Mental Health Canter is faced with in Orange County; and I do fEel. that in order to serve the clients of the Mental Health Canter it is necessary at this paint, to either acquire this Northside site, which to me is 'the most feasible at this point, to pro- vide the necessary space. I guess, in summing what I've been trying to say, is that, T guess I can see the questions in Mr. Walker's hand, he has indicated at certain points that the procedure has been explained and he has no further questions on some -- points and that any other points I hcpe are cleared up for him now because we are at a critical point where we need to move on with this project. Does anybody have any other comments?" Commissioner Walker replied, "I would like to say, that it's clear in a fashion; but I certainly disagree with the procedure of giving applications (Unable to Decipher). T certainly am in accord with Mental Health. It is a. very worthy cause to the County.' but as we point out the need, i have read this history of Mental Health sincE it. came to Orange County, I van tell you right now; and it states here in comparison to the rear, of the United States, North Carolina is one of the leaders in pursuing cpmmunity Mental' Health goals so I wonder how wE stand in the way of need if cur need is of course greater than anybody ekes sincE we are]eaders in North Carolina." Chairman Garrett inquired, "Are there any additional questions? If there are no further questions, comments, we certainly appreciate your coming tonight. Yes, Mr. Dunlap." Mr. Henry Dunlap, Commissioner from Chatham County, stated, "I am a new member. Mr. White really should probably speak to this, but I have spoken with each of our ' commissioners and former Commissioners and/no one was ever apprised of the, even the ' approach to the situation, that I can ascertain. My point is that if we're. liable for the $11,000.00, or half of, the $11,000.00, we're not prepared in our budget as of this year to fund that money. It has not beEn approved." Commissioner walker stated, "Excuse me and thank you sir, and I d like to reiterate what Benny Bradsher told me, it's a little contrary to what Mr. Lewis has said. I talked to him sometime a week or two ago, and he said he had no knowledge of any commitment of the Person County Board whatsoever. He had turned this over to Mr. Ralph Lewis and I assume here that. he was appointed by Mr. Lewis to the Area Health Board as one .of the re- presentatives of Person County. 3e was Listed as owe." Commissoner•:4hitted asked, "Is he a member of the Area Mental Health Board?" Commissioner Walker replied, "No, Benny SradshEr is the Chairman of the Board." (Some questions and answers concerning this appointment were briefly exchanged between Cammisssianer Whitted, Mx. Lewis, Mr. Curtis Bradsher, and Commissioner Walker. CIInable to decipher all of this.) commissioner Walker continued, "Hut I have talked with the Chairman of the Board and he knows nothing about any commitment from Person County. I scare wish he could have been here tonight." ~ti 4~7 Chairman Garrett asked, "Are there any additional questions" Commissioner Walker replied, "I would like tv ask Mr. Webb now, that Chatham County can't contribute their money how will this affect the Grant application?" Mr. Webb stated, "The Area Board has the commitment to come up with the local funds and as I have said before, it will be up to them as to,how they will fund it. _ Their proposal was that all three counties would share in it. It does not have to be that way. 2 don't know if there are other alternatives for funding or not, we'd have to direct that to the Area Soard as the applicants." commissioner Walker stated, ^Well, I daze say, that they could commit a County Hoard too, the Area Board, I don't; I'd like for Pat to quote that statute to the Area Hoard too Mrs. Walton i~errupted, "The Area Board cannot allocate or commit County _ funds. The area Board has budgetary authority to set a budget and then to seek funds." Garrett Chairman/stated, "Mr. Gustaveson." Commissioner walker stated, "z would make the point quite clear now, if Mr. Whitted would speak back to what Pat has said." Commissioner Whined stated, "I didn't realize I was saying anything different from what she said. The Area Hoard is the local authority as the State sanctions it by law; ar_d they do have the authority to acquire and hold property and to provide funding. Part of that funding, one of the 34 sources of funding that support the Mental xealth Center, is Orange County Commissioners' tax dollars that you put into it, some small .(Unable to decipher)." Commissioner Walker stated, "Now that Mr. Wh~.te has told you that Chatham County cannot come through with their obligation, where does that put you and the Area Board?" Mr. Webb replied, "It puts us st111 awarding a Grant to an Area Hoard and puts obligations to the Area Soard to come up with $61,000.00." Chairman Garrett stated, "Excuse me just a minute; 2 don't believe Mr. Dunlap said they cannot come up with the money. He said that it has not been programed . Mr. Dunlap intemlpted, "I do not know what the present Board feelings would be, I would not make any statement towards their present view; certainly do not speak for the rest of them, and as, I would certainly be in favor of any progress towards Mental Health; and T am presently on the Soard here and will be I hope, but I was just trying to point out the . Chairman Garrett intemspted„ "We haven't committed a thing so we have (Unable to decipher), Mr. Lewis." Mr. Lewis stated, "Mrs. Garrett, Person County is like Chatham and Orange. It has not committed any funds either. I called Mr. Benny $radsher, after I got this letter, to remind him about the statement that I made at a Commissioners' meeting. I was a member of the Hoard of commissionezs at that time, along with Curtis, and we informed the other three Commissioners what was going on and that both of the funds would be solved at a later date. And there was no need to take any action, we thought, at that time, since there was no request making the specific amount; and .as Pat has already stated that when they make, when the Mental Health Board makes their Budget request for '74-'75, there was no indication that this grant would be approved so soon. They were reacting from honest motives. Now since the Grant is here, Person county doesn't have any money an its budget this year for its Grants. Now I feel that the Commissioners were . (Something happened to machine at this point: It was either cut off or there was a malfunction in the tape.) CommissionEr Gustaveson stated, "I would like to move that the Orange County Board of Commissioners reaffirm its support of the Orange-.C}Tatham-Person Mental Health Hoard, and its efforts to provide adequate facilities for its services in these three counties; and this Board move with vigor and concern for, to renew its efforts of negotiating for the purchase or lease of the Northside property." Chairman Garrett called for a second to the motio». Commissioner Whitted, "I second it." Chairman Garrett stated, "We have moved and seconded it. Is there any discussion?" Commissioner Walker stated, "Yes, 2 think its very proper at this time, what . you are doing; we are actually voting to buy the property before we negotiate the price. And we are voting to put an $80,000.00 match in before our Budget year comes up in '7S-'76. ~ Chairman Garrett stated, "That's not what the motion stated . Commissioner Walker interrupted., "In effect is what we are doing Mrs. Garrett." ^~ 438 Chairman Garrett stated, "Would you like to read your whole motion again?" Commissioner Gustaveson stated, "Tn renewing the negotiation for the purchase yr lease of the Northside property." Commissioner Walker stated, "Read the whole motion then I think then you will understand it better Mrs, Garrett." Chairman Garrett stated, "Would you like to read your whole motion again?" Commissioner Gustaveson stated, "I think down the road yo:1 are correct but at this point the first step is really to go back to where we started in October, as a member of the Committee to negotiate for the purchase of the lease of the Northside property. Well, the first part is just simply the Orange County Board of Commissioners reaffirm tv support of the Orange-Chatham-Person Mental Health Board in its effort to provide adequate facilities for its services in the three counties; and that this Board renew its efforts by continuing or renewing its negotiations with the Chapel Hill school Board for the purchase or lease of the Northside property." (Comments of Commissioner Walker and Chairman Garrett are deleted £rom the minutes at this point.) Commissioner Walker stated, "I can't understand a Hoard that would proceed with information like this, regardless of what has been said here tonight, 1 c&nno-t see . Chairman Garrett stated, Mr. Walker, T would like to say this, you first received notification of that S61,OOO.OO.on October 8th. Why didn't you say something if you were so concerned?" Commissioner Walker replied, "Well, I feel, I say myself getting . (This discussion ended at this point. The machine was either cut off or something hapgened to the tape. THE. VERBATIM PORTION OF THIS TAPE ENDS HERE.) Further discussion ensued. chairman Garrett called for a vote on the motion. Commissioners Garrett, Gustaveson, Pinney, aild ..Whitted voted aye. Commissioner Walker voted nay. - Chairman Garrett declared the motion passed. A, B. Coleman, Jr., County Attorney, reported that he had.a conference with Marion sanks, Assistant Attorney General concerning the meeting o.f M.arch 18th, with respect to the appraising the UNC property and we have agreed to an informal meeting. Mr'. Coleman stated that Mr. Banks would make a formal objection to the property values that triad been placed on the t1NC lands; and there will be no ' questioning of Mr. Laws, the Tax Supervisor. Mr. Coleman stated Mr. Laws would present a list of the properties, identify it, and give the appraised value. Mr. Coleman explained the Fermat that he planned to use in wor{ing with the Assistant Attorney General. He stated that the legal question did involve whether or not public lands could be taxed. However the use of these lands was the basis of. the taxing policy. It was understood between the County Attorney and the Board that it any compromise was reached on. the matter that the Board would review the compromise prior to any action being taken. Discussion ensued. There being no further business to come before the Board, the meeting was adjourned. Flora Garrett, Chairman Betty June Hayes, Clerk .~